mlinssen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:54 amBoth attest unequivocally to the use of Chrestian, first and foremost.
Yes, but called "Chrestian" by
the pagans. We could also include Tacitus as well, by writing about a man crucified in Judea under Pilate whose followers were called "Chrestians" according to one text that had the word changed later on. Now, leaving aside the nature of the passage, e.g. interpolation or not, it is clearly Christ that has followers that were "a class hated for their abominations, called "Chrestians" by the populace." So it seems to have been a well-known appellation of that time.
mlinssen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:54 am
But if you see a pun, can you explain the pun in both of these excerpts? Because it is blatantly obvious that even Tertullian is screwing up things by saying "even the harmless name we bear", "being a good Greek word"
Yes, but it appears that Tertullian is referring to "anointing". Both Justin Martyr and Tertullian link "Christ" to "anointing" when writing to the pagans.
First Justin Martyr in his First Apology to the pagans, where he is quoting Psalm 2:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine new things? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against His Anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast their yoke from us. He that dwelleth in the heavens shall laugh at them, and the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then in his Second Apology to the pagans:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html
And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word, who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God's ordering all things through Him
Finally, Tertullian, from the link I gave above, when writing to pagans:
The name Christian, however, so far as its meaning goes, bears the sense of anointing. Even when by a faulty pronunciation you call us "Chrestians" (for you are not certain about even the sound of this noted name), you in fact lisp out the sense of pleasantness and goodness. You are therefore vilifying in harmless men even the harmless name we bear, which is not inconvenient for the tongue, nor harsh to the ear, nor injurious to a single being, nor rude for our country, being a good Greek word, as many others also are, and pleasant in sound and sense. Surely, surely, names are not things which deserve punishment by the sword, or the cross, or the beasts.
It may be possible that Christians believed in a "Christ" while at the same time calling themselves "Chrestians" in the First Century CE. Sometimes labels get applied by others, like "Mormons", "Big Bang Theory", etc. But both Justin Martyr and Tertullian call themselves "Christian" and infer that calling them "Chrestians" is a mistake.
From a dating perspective, the concern over being called "Chrestian" suggests writings that were earlier rather than later. AFAIK "Chrestian" stops being referenced after Tertullian, though I could be wrong.