The son(s) of the bridal chamber

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mlinssen
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:02 am Yes ML Zinner did a number on Thomas I saw that. I might start a thread on the lead codices they're strange. Just when you think it can't get any stranger it freaking does. but we're stuck with Zinner for them

As well as the Tripartite Tractate there's also the Exegesis on the Soul. That's another potential Simonian piece by the way it even mentions Helena!
It's the same thing all over again, the 'gospel' that's also lurking in John which is a romance novel. Same as the Odes. It's a pattern that keeps popping up
But then the bridegroom, according to the father's will, came down to her into the bridal chamber, which was prepared. And he decorated the bridal chamber
But once they unite with one another, they become a single life. Wherefore the prophet said (Gn 2:24) concerning the first man and the first woman, "They will become a single flesh."
Thus when the soul had adorned herself again in her beauty [...] enjoyed her beloved, and he also loved her. And when she had intercourse with him, she got from him the seed that is the life-giving spirit, so that by him she bears good children and rears them. For this is the great, perfect marvel of birth. And so this marriage is made perfect by the will of the father
Yes, the theme is clear. It's all very Gnostic including Mark's feeble attempt at one flesh that made Matthew resort to blasphemy in order to fix it.
Marriage, birth - but as you can see, Mac demonstrates how utterly important the original text is. When we want to see what the words are

Nymphon - that's just the temple populated by all females, as far as I'm concerned. It's a joke in Thomas, and it reminds me of that wild party night at Berkeley College - now ages ago
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by lsayre »

Does it seem logical to be OK with the idea of males being united with the Christ within confines of the bridal chamber, while the same are typically not OK with the inferences found within 'Secret Mark'.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:19 am
ⲟⲩ ⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ - a place of marriage, an entirely different word yet one that Thomas has as well

75. said IS Surely many standing-on-foot they at-door-of the door Rather the(PL) Single-One they-who will go-inward to the place of marriage

τὸν Νυμφῶνα is what the Greek has, that's the very word

So
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:31 am The Triparite Tractate has

[corrected]

Now the 13 election is a partner in the body 14 and being with 15 the Savior, since it is like a place of marriage 16 on account of its unity 17 and its agreement with him. For, before 18 each space, 19 the Christ came on account of it (the election). Now as for the calling, 20 it has the place 21 of those who rejoice at the place of marriage 22 and who are glad and rejoice 23 at the joining of the bridegroom 24 and the bride. The calling’s 25 place, which will come to be for it, is the eternity 26 of the images, where 27 the Word has not yet joined with the fullness. And 28 when the human of the church was joyful and 29 glad at this, since he was hoping 30 for it, 31 he divided spirit, soul, and body in 32 the ordering of the one who thinks that 33 he is a unity, even though the human dwelling within him 34 is the one who is the 35 entirety, and he is all of them.

ϫⲉ ϯⲙⲛ̅ⲧ- 13 ⲥⲱⲧⲡ̅ ⲛ̅ⲇⲉ ⲟⲩϣⲃⲏⲣ ⲛ̅ⲥⲱⲙⲁ ⲇⲉ 14 ⲁⲩⲱ ⲟⲩϣⲃⲏⲣ ⲛ̅ⲛⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ ⲧⲉ ⲙⲛ̅ 15 ⲡⲥⲱⲧⲏⲣ ⲉⲥⲟⲉⲓ ⲙ̅ⲡⲣⲏⲧⲉ ⲛ̅ⲛⲟⲩⲙⲁ 16 ⲛ̅ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ ⲉⲧⲃⲉ ⲧⲉⲥⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲟⲩⲉⲉⲓ ⲛ̅- 17 ⲟⲩⲱⲧ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲡⲉⲥⲧⲱⲧ ϣⲁⲣⲁϥ. ϩⲁⲑⲏ ⲅⲁⲣ 18 ⲙ̅ⲙⲁⲉⲓⲧ ⲛⲓⲙ ⲉⲣⲉⲁϥⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲃⲏⲏⲧⲥ̅ 19 ⲛ̅ϭⲓ ⲡⲉⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ. ϯⲙⲛ̅ⲧ<ⲧ>ⲱϩⲙⲉ ⲛ̅ⲇⲉ 20 ⲛ̅ⲧⲁϥ ⲉⲩⲛⲧⲉⲥ ⲙ̅ⲙⲉⲩ ⲛ̅ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ 21 ⲛ̅ⲛⲉⲧⲟⲩⲛⲁϥ ⲙ̅ⲡⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ϣⲉⲗⲉ- 22 ⲉⲧ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲉⲧⲣⲁⲟⲩⲧ ⲉⲧⲣⲁϣⲉ ⲁ- 23 ϩⲣⲏⲓ̈ ⲁϫⲛ̅ ⲡⲙⲟⲩϫϭ̅ ⲙ̅ⲡⲁ ⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ 24 ⲙⲛ̅ ⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ. ϯⲙⲛ̅ⲧ<ⲧ>ⲱϩⲙⲉ ϭⲉ 25 ⲡⲉⲥⲧⲟⲡⲟⲥ ⲉⲧⲛⲁϣⲱⲡⲉ ⲛⲉⲥ, ⲡⲉ ⲡⲁⲓⲱⲛ 26 ⲛ̅ⲇⲉ ⲛⲓϩⲓ̈ⲕⲱⲛ, ⲙ̅ⲡⲙⲁ ⲉⲧⲉⲙ̅ⲡⲁⲧⲉ 27 ⲡⲗⲟⲅⲟⲥ ⲧⲱⲧ ⲙ̅ⲡⲡⲗⲏⲣⲱⲙⲁ. ⲁⲩⲱ 28 ⲡⲁⲉⲓ ⲉϥⲣⲉϣⲉ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲉϥⲣⲁ- 29 ⲟⲩⲧ ⲙ̅ⲙⲟϥ, ⲉϥⲣ̅ ϩⲉⲗⲡⲓⲍⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ 30 ⲁⲣⲁϥ, ⲛ̅ϭⲓ ⲡⲣⲱⲙⲉ ⲛ̅ⲧⲉⲕⲕⲗⲏⲥⲓⲁ, 31 ⲁϥⲡⲱϣⲉ ⲙ̅ⲡⲛⲉⲩⲙⲁ ⲯⲩⲭⲏ ⲥⲱⲙⲁ ϩⲛ̅ 32 ⲧⲟⲓⲕⲟⲛⲟⲙⲓⲁ ⲙ̅ⲡⲁⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲙⲉⲩⲉ ϫⲉ 33 ⲛⲉⲟⲩⲉⲉⲓ ⲛ̅ⲟⲩⲱⲧ ⲡⲉ, ⲉϥϣⲟⲟⲡ ⲛ̅ϩⲏⲧϥ̅ 34 ⲡⲉ ⲛ̅ϭⲓ ⲡⲣⲱⲙⲉ ⲡⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲉ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁϥ ⲡⲉ 35 ⲡⲧⲏⲣϥ̅, ⲁⲩⲱ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁϥ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲩ ⲧⲏⲣⲟⲩ ⲡⲉ.



and, later, -


The baptism that we 20 previously discussed is called 21 “garment of those who do not 22 strip themselves of it,” because those who 23 will clothe themselves in it and those who have 24 received redemption wear it. It is also 25 called “the strength of the 26 truth that does not have destruction.” 27 Without wavering and 28 movement it grasps 29 those who 30 have received the <restoration> even as they grasp him. It is called 31 “silence” on account of 32 the tranquility and imperturbability. 33 It is also called place of marriage 34 on account of the agreement and the 35 lack of division of those who know that 36 they have known him. It is also [called] 129.1 “the light that never sets 2 and has no flame,” since it does not illuminate, 3 but those who have worn it 4 are made into light. 5 They are those whom he wore. 6 Additionally it (baptism) is called “the 7 life eternal,” that is, 8 immortality. It is also called 9 “that which exists completely, plainly, 10 properly, in what is beautiful, 11 indivisibly, 12 steadfastly, flawlessly, 13 unwaveringly, to the one who exists 14 for those who have received a beginning.” For what else 15 is there to call it 16 except “the call,” since it is for the entireties, 17 that is, even if it is called 18 countless names, 19 they are spoken with reference to it.

ϫⲉ ⲡⲓⲃⲁⲡⲧⲓⲥⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲛ- 20 ϣⲣⲡ̅ ⲛ̅ϫⲟⲟϥ ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ 21 ϫⲉ « ϩⲃ̅ⲥⲟⲩ ⲛ̅ⲛⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲉⲙⲁⲩⲕⲁ- 22 ⲕⲟⲩ ⲁϩⲏⲩ ⲙ̅ⲙⲟϥ, » ϫⲉ ⲛⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲧ- 23 ⲛⲁⲧⲉⲉⲓϥ ϩⲓ̈ⲱⲟⲩ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲛⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲛⲧⲁϩ- 24 ϫⲓ ⲥⲱⲧⲉ ⲉⲩⲣ̅ ⲫⲟⲣⲓ ⲙ̅ⲙⲟϥ. ⲁⲩⲱ ⲥⲉ- 25 ⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ϫⲉ « ⲡⲧⲁϫⲣⲟ ⲛ̅ϯ- 26 ⲧⲙⲏⲉ ⲡⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲉⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲉϥ ϩⲉⲉⲓⲉ 27 ⲙ̅ⲙⲉⲩ. » ϩⲛ̅ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁ<ⲧ>ⲣⲓⲕⲉ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲟⲩ- 28 ⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧⲕⲓⲙ ⲉϥⲉⲙⲁϩⲧⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁⲩ 29 ⲉⲩⲁⲙⲁϩⲧⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ ⲛϭⲓ ⲛⲉⲉⲓ ⲛ̅- 30 ⲧⲁϩϫⲓ ⲛ̅ϯⲁⲡⲟⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲟⲥ. ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩ- 31 ⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ϫⲉ « ⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲕⲁⲣⲱⲥ » ⲉⲧⲃⲉ 32 ⲡⲥϭⲣⲁϩⲧ̅ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲧⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧϣⲧⲟⲣⲧⲣ̅. 33 ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ⲁⲛ ϫⲉ « ⲙⲁ ⲛϣⲉⲗⲉ- 34 ⲉⲧ » ⲉⲧⲃⲉ ⲡⲓⲙⲉⲧⲉ ⲙⲛ̅ ϯⲙⲛ̅ⲧ- 35 ⲁⲧⲡⲱϣⲉ ⲉⲧⲉ ⲛⲁⲉ[ⲓ ⲛ]ⲉϯ̣[ⲟ] ⲩⲥⲁⲩⲛⲉ 36 ϫⲉ ⲁⲩⲥⲟⲩⲱⲛϥ̅. ⲁⲩⲱ ⲥ[ⲉⲙⲟⲩ]ⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ 129.1 ⲁⲛ ϫⲉ « ⲡⲟⲩⲁⲉⲓⲛ ⲛ̅ⲁⲧϩⲱⲧⲡ̅ 2 ⲁⲩⲱ ⲛ̅ⲁⲧⲕⲱϩⲧ, » ⲉϥϯ ⲟⲩⲁⲉⲓⲛ ⲉⲛ, 3 ⲁⲗⲗⲁ ⲛⲉⲧⲁϩⲣ̅ ⲫⲟⲣⲓ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ ⲉⲩ- 4 ⲉⲓⲣⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁⲩ ⲛ̅ⲟⲩⲁⲉⲓⲛ. ⲉⲧⲉ 5 ⲛⲁⲉⲓ ⲁⲛ ⲛⲉ ⲉⲛⲧⲁϥⲣ̅ ⲫⲟⲣⲓ ⲙ̅ⲙ[ⲁ]ⲩ̣. 6 ⲁⲩⲱ ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ⲁⲛ ϫⲉ « ⲡⲓ- 7 ⲱⲛϩ̅ ϣⲁ ⲉⲛⲏϩⲉ, » ⲉⲧⲉ ⲡⲉⲉⲓ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲓ- 8 ⲁⲧⲙⲟⲩ. ⲁⲩⲱ ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ « ⲙ̅- 9 ⲡⲉⲧϣⲟⲟⲡ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ ⲧⲏⲣϥ̅ ϩⲁⲡⲗⲱⲥ 10 ϩⲛ̅ⲛ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅ⲧϫⲁⲉⲓⲥ ⲙ̅ⲡⲉⲧⲁⲛⲓⲧ 11 ϩⲛⲛ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧⲡⲱϣⲉ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅[ⲧ]- 12 ⲁⲧϥⲓ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧϣⲧⲁ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲟⲩ- 13 ⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧⲣⲓⲕⲉ, ϣⲁ ⲡⲁⲉⲓ ⲉⲧϣⲟⲟⲡ 14 ⲛ̅ⲛⲉⲧⲁϩϫⲓ ϩⲏ. » ⲉⲩ ⲛ̅ⲅⲁⲣ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲕⲉ- 15 ⲟⲩⲉⲉⲓ ⲁⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ 16 ⲛ̅ⲥⲁ « `ⲡ´ⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ » ⲉϥⲟⲉⲓ ⲛ̅ⲛⲓⲡⲧⲏⲣϥ̅, 17 ⲉⲧⲉ ⲡⲉⲉⲓ ⲡⲉ, ⲕⲁⲛ ⲉⲩϣⲁⲛⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ 18 ⲁⲣⲁϥ ⲛ̅ⲛⲓⲣⲉⲛ {ⲛⲛⲓⲣⲉⲛ} ⲛ̅ⲁⲧⲁⲡⲟⲩ, 19 ⲉⲣⲉⲁⲩϫⲟⲟⲩ ⲁⲩϭⲛϣⲉϫⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ.


Has Smith (or whoever did his translations) mis-translated 'bridegroom' and '[the] bride'?

or does ⲟⲩ ⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ cover all three terms?

mlinssen wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:19 am τὸν Νυμφῶνα is what the Greek has, that's the very word
That's straighforward for Excerpts of Theodotus (which I think, iirc, the English version has more use of 'bridal chamber')
(as do the others ie. G.Philip and the Tripartite Tractate)
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:31 am
Excerpts of Theodotus has


63 The resting of the spirituals on the Lord’s Day, in the Ogdoad, which is termed the Lord’s Day, is with the mother, wearing their souls, the garments, until the culmination. But the other faithful souls are with the Creator, but at the culmination they also go up into the Ogdoad.

Then the marriage feast shared by all who are saved, until all are made equal and know each other.


64 Thereupon the spiritual elements that have laid aside their souls, together with the mother who escorts the groom, also escort the grooms, their angels, enter into the bridal chamber within the boundary, and come to the vision of the Father, becoming intellectual eternities, in the intellectual and eternal marriages of the syzygy.

65 The “master” of the banquet, the best man of the marriage “and friend of the groom who stands before the bridal chamber, hearing the voice of the groom, rejoices.”

This is his “fullness of joy” and rest.


63 Ἡ μὲν οὖν τῶν πνευματικῶν ἀνάπαυσις ἐν κυριακῇ, ἐν Ὀγδοάδι, ἣ Κυριακὴ ὀνομάζεται, παρὰ τῇ Μητρί, ἐχόντων τὰς ψυχάς, τὰ ἐνδύματα, ἄχρι συντελείας. αἱ δὲ ἄλλαι πισταὶ ψυχαί, παρὰ τῷ Δημιουργῷ, περὶ δὲ τὴν συντέλειαν, ἀναχωροῦσι καὶ αὗται εἰς Ὀγδόαδα.

Εἶτα, τὸ δεῖπνον τῶν γάμων κοινὸν πάντων τῶν σῳζομένων, ἄχρις ἂν ἀπισωθῇ πάντα καὶ ἄλλη`λα´ γνωρίσῃ.


64 Τὸ δὲ ἐντεῦθεν, ἀποθέμενα τὰ πνευματικὰ τὰς ψυχάς, ἅμα τῇ Μητρὶ κομιζομένῃ τὸν Νυμφίον, κομιζόμενα καὶ αὐτὰ τοὺς νυμφίους, τοὺς Ἀγγέλους ἑαυτῶν, εἰς τὸν Νυμφῶνα ἐντὸς τοῦ Ὅρου εἰσίασι, καὶ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ Πατρὸς ὄψιν ἔρχονται, Αἰῶνες νοεροὶ γενόμενα, εἰς τοὺς νοεροὺς καὶ αἰωνίους γάμους τῆς συζυγίας.

65 Ὁ δὲ τοῦ δείπνου μὲν «ἀρχιτρίκλινος,» τῶν γάμων δὲ παράνυμφος «τοῦ Νυμφίου δὲ Φίλος, ἑστὼς ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ νυμφῶνος, ἀκούων τῆς φωνῆς τοῦ Νυμφίου, χαρᾷ χαίρει.»

Τοῦτο αὐτοῦ «τὸ Πλήρωμα τῆς χαρᾶς» καὶ τῆς ἀναπαύσεως.


Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
davidmartin
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by davidmartin »

lsayre wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:00 am Does it seem logical to be OK with the idea of males being united with the Christ within confines of the bridal chamber, while the same are typically not OK with the inferences found within 'Secret Mark'.
I think the Valentinians said that they would be transformed into females to greet their angels and bear children with them and some church father made fun of them for this (if this is a reliable account) but they were probably grappling with the same problem

On the other hand if Christ can also be female this problem goes away, that could be inferred among the Simionians according to Hippolytus Helena and Simon are actually the same so they had a female Christ in their system apparently. No need to go down the Secret Mark route or get a sex change :shock:

This whole thing bears a resemblance to the wedding of the 'church' and Christ
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:38 am Has Smith (or whoever did his translations) mis-translated 'bridegroom' and '[the] bride'?

or does ⲟⲩ ⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ cover all three terms?
Place. Of. Marriage

ⲙⲁ ⲛϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ - place of marriage, bridechamber, marriage
ⲡⲁⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ - he of the bride, bridegroom

ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ - https://coptic-dictionary.org/entry.cgi?tla=C5840

And the two above are at the bottom.
ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ is a feminine noun and means bride. Put the feminine article in front of it, ⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ, and it says "the bride". Put "he belonging to" in front of it, and you get ⲡⲁⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ.
Don't confuse the Pi for a Mu here!

Likewise yet different for place, ⲙⲁ: ⲙⲁ ⲛ ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ = place of ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ; the absence of the feminine article suggests the other definition of the word, marriage

To answer your question: the translation correctly distinguishes between the 3 types: place of marriage, he belonging to the bride, the bride

I'd have to run statistics to see whether ⲙⲁ ⲛ ⲧ ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ is a thing, "place of the bride". But what is a bridal chamber to begin with, or a place of marriage for that matter?
But the most important question is, I think, whether there are already two at a place of marriage, or only one. And if there is one, is it the one who the room belongs to, or the opposite part?
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:10 am
lsayre wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:00 am Does it seem logical to be OK with the idea of males being united with the Christ within confines of the bridal chamber, while the same are typically not OK with the inferences found within 'Secret Mark'.
I think the Valentinians said that they would be transformed into females to greet their angels and bear children with them and some church father made fun of them for this (if this is a reliable account) but they were probably grappling with the same problem

On the other hand if Christ can also be female this problem goes away, that could be inferred among the Simionians according to Hippolytus Helena and Simon are actually the same so they had a female Christ in their system apparently. No need to go down the Secret Mark route or get a sex change :shock:

This whole thing bears a resemblance to the wedding of the 'church' and Christ
And before you know it we get to the non-duality views of Thomas, the androgyne ideal of the Hellenic world, or the androgynous plural for the God of the Tanakh: Elohim

Secret Mark just needed to be made off-limits to religiots so they threw all the hate they could manage at it and the person who discovered it
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by davidmartin »

And that's the surprising thing investigating the origins of Christianity. There's dualism everywhere you look on all sides but arguably at the centre itself you don't find it. Maybe that's why it spawned such diverse offshoots that are opposites to each other?
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:56 pm And that's the surprising thing investigating the origins of Christianity. There's dualism everywhere you look on all sides but arguably at the centre itself you don't find it. Maybe that's why it spawned such diverse offshoots that are opposites to each other?
Christianity is duality at its very core david, with its carrot of salvation and the stick of damnation.
Heaven and hell.
Jesus and Satan.
Good and bad.
Life and death.
Health and sickness.
Righteousness and whatever else

Need I go on? Christianity divides to the bone, it is only inclusive because of its exclusiveness. Those who aren't with me are against me, orthodoxy versus heresy.
Christianity is the epitome of duality. Take all the good you can find in the gospels and there's always at least one bad counterweight
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by Leucius Charinus »

From OP:
"The son of the Nymphwn"
mlinssen wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:52 amNymphon - that's just the temple populated by all females, as far as I'm concerned. It's a joke in Thomas...
1) Can you explain the joke in Thomas once again ? Thanks !!

2) Any relationship to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Ca ... he_Odyssey
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mlinssen
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Re: The son(s) of the bridal chamber

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:38 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:19 am
ⲟⲩ ⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ - a place of marriage, an entirely different word yet one that Thomas has as well

75. said IS Surely many standing-on-foot they at-door-of the door Rather the(PL) Single-One they-who will go-inward to the place of marriage

τὸν Νυμφῶνα is what the Greek has, that's the very word

So
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:31 am The Triparite Tractate has

[corrected]

Now the 13 election is a partner in the body 14 and being with 15 the Savior, since it is like a place of marriage 16 on account of its unity 17 and its agreement with him. For, before 18 each space, 19 the Christ came on account of it (the election). Now as for the calling, 20 it has the place 21 of those who rejoice at the place of marriage 22 and who are glad and rejoice 23 at the joining of the bridegroom 24 and the bride. The calling’s 25 place, which will come to be for it, is the eternity 26 of the images, where 27 the Word has not yet joined with the fullness. And 28 when the human of the church was joyful and 29 glad at this, since he was hoping 30 for it, 31 he divided spirit, soul, and body in 32 the ordering of the one who thinks that 33 he is a unity, even though the human dwelling within him 34 is the one who is the 35 entirety, and he is all of them.

ϫⲉ ϯⲙⲛ̅ⲧ- 13 ⲥⲱⲧⲡ̅ ⲛ̅ⲇⲉ ⲟⲩϣⲃⲏⲣ ⲛ̅ⲥⲱⲙⲁ ⲇⲉ 14 ⲁⲩⲱ ⲟⲩϣⲃⲏⲣ ⲛ̅ⲛⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ ⲧⲉ ⲙⲛ̅ 15 ⲡⲥⲱⲧⲏⲣ ⲉⲥⲟⲉⲓ ⲙ̅ⲡⲣⲏⲧⲉ ⲛ̅ⲛⲟⲩⲙⲁ 16 ⲛ̅ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ ⲉⲧⲃⲉ ⲧⲉⲥⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲟⲩⲉⲉⲓ ⲛ̅- 17 ⲟⲩⲱⲧ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲡⲉⲥⲧⲱⲧ ϣⲁⲣⲁϥ. ϩⲁⲑⲏ ⲅⲁⲣ 18 ⲙ̅ⲙⲁⲉⲓⲧ ⲛⲓⲙ ⲉⲣⲉⲁϥⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲃⲏⲏⲧⲥ̅ 19 ⲛ̅ϭⲓ ⲡⲉⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ. ϯⲙⲛ̅ⲧ<ⲧ>ⲱϩⲙⲉ ⲛ̅ⲇⲉ 20 ⲛ̅ⲧⲁϥ ⲉⲩⲛⲧⲉⲥ ⲙ̅ⲙⲉⲩ ⲛ̅ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ 21 ⲛ̅ⲛⲉⲧⲟⲩⲛⲁϥ ⲙ̅ⲡⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ϣⲉⲗⲉ- 22 ⲉⲧ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲉⲧⲣⲁⲟⲩⲧ ⲉⲧⲣⲁϣⲉ ⲁ- 23 ϩⲣⲏⲓ̈ ⲁϫⲛ̅ ⲡⲙⲟⲩϫϭ̅ ⲙ̅ⲡⲁ ⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ 24 ⲙⲛ̅ ⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ. ϯⲙⲛ̅ⲧ<ⲧ>ⲱϩⲙⲉ ϭⲉ 25 ⲡⲉⲥⲧⲟⲡⲟⲥ ⲉⲧⲛⲁϣⲱⲡⲉ ⲛⲉⲥ, ⲡⲉ ⲡⲁⲓⲱⲛ 26 ⲛ̅ⲇⲉ ⲛⲓϩⲓ̈ⲕⲱⲛ, ⲙ̅ⲡⲙⲁ ⲉⲧⲉⲙ̅ⲡⲁⲧⲉ 27 ⲡⲗⲟⲅⲟⲥ ⲧⲱⲧ ⲙ̅ⲡⲡⲗⲏⲣⲱⲙⲁ. ⲁⲩⲱ 28 ⲡⲁⲉⲓ ⲉϥⲣⲉϣⲉ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲉϥⲣⲁ- 29 ⲟⲩⲧ ⲙ̅ⲙⲟϥ, ⲉϥⲣ̅ ϩⲉⲗⲡⲓⲍⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ 30 ⲁⲣⲁϥ, ⲛ̅ϭⲓ ⲡⲣⲱⲙⲉ ⲛ̅ⲧⲉⲕⲕⲗⲏⲥⲓⲁ, 31 ⲁϥⲡⲱϣⲉ ⲙ̅ⲡⲛⲉⲩⲙⲁ ⲯⲩⲭⲏ ⲥⲱⲙⲁ ϩⲛ̅ 32 ⲧⲟⲓⲕⲟⲛⲟⲙⲓⲁ ⲙ̅ⲡⲁⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲙⲉⲩⲉ ϫⲉ 33 ⲛⲉⲟⲩⲉⲉⲓ ⲛ̅ⲟⲩⲱⲧ ⲡⲉ, ⲉϥϣⲟⲟⲡ ⲛ̅ϩⲏⲧϥ̅ 34 ⲡⲉ ⲛ̅ϭⲓ ⲡⲣⲱⲙⲉ ⲡⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲉ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁϥ ⲡⲉ 35 ⲡⲧⲏⲣϥ̅, ⲁⲩⲱ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁϥ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲩ ⲧⲏⲣⲟⲩ ⲡⲉ.



and, later, -


The baptism that we 20 previously discussed is called 21 “garment of those who do not 22 strip themselves of it,” because those who 23 will clothe themselves in it and those who have 24 received redemption wear it. It is also 25 called “the strength of the 26 truth that does not have destruction.” 27 Without wavering and 28 movement it grasps 29 those who 30 have received the <restoration> even as they grasp him. It is called 31 “silence” on account of 32 the tranquility and imperturbability. 33 It is also called place of marriage 34 on account of the agreement and the 35 lack of division of those who know that 36 they have known him. It is also [called] 129.1 “the light that never sets 2 and has no flame,” since it does not illuminate, 3 but those who have worn it 4 are made into light. 5 They are those whom he wore. 6 Additionally it (baptism) is called “the 7 life eternal,” that is, 8 immortality. It is also called 9 “that which exists completely, plainly, 10 properly, in what is beautiful, 11 indivisibly, 12 steadfastly, flawlessly, 13 unwaveringly, to the one who exists 14 for those who have received a beginning.” For what else 15 is there to call it 16 except “the call,” since it is for the entireties, 17 that is, even if it is called 18 countless names, 19 they are spoken with reference to it.

ϫⲉ ⲡⲓⲃⲁⲡⲧⲓⲥⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲛ- 20 ϣⲣⲡ̅ ⲛ̅ϫⲟⲟϥ ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ 21 ϫⲉ « ϩⲃ̅ⲥⲟⲩ ⲛ̅ⲛⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲉⲙⲁⲩⲕⲁ- 22 ⲕⲟⲩ ⲁϩⲏⲩ ⲙ̅ⲙⲟϥ, » ϫⲉ ⲛⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲧ- 23 ⲛⲁⲧⲉⲉⲓϥ ϩⲓ̈ⲱⲟⲩ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲛⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲛⲧⲁϩ- 24 ϫⲓ ⲥⲱⲧⲉ ⲉⲩⲣ̅ ⲫⲟⲣⲓ ⲙ̅ⲙⲟϥ. ⲁⲩⲱ ⲥⲉ- 25 ⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ϫⲉ « ⲡⲧⲁϫⲣⲟ ⲛ̅ϯ- 26 ⲧⲙⲏⲉ ⲡⲉⲉⲓ ⲉⲧⲉⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲉϥ ϩⲉⲉⲓⲉ 27 ⲙ̅ⲙⲉⲩ. » ϩⲛ̅ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁ<ⲧ>ⲣⲓⲕⲉ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲟⲩ- 28 ⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧⲕⲓⲙ ⲉϥⲉⲙⲁϩⲧⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁⲩ 29 ⲉⲩⲁⲙⲁϩⲧⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ ⲛϭⲓ ⲛⲉⲉⲓ ⲛ̅- 30 ⲧⲁϩϫⲓ ⲛ̅ϯⲁⲡⲟⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲟⲥ. ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩ- 31 ⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ϫⲉ « ⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲕⲁⲣⲱⲥ » ⲉⲧⲃⲉ 32 ⲡⲥϭⲣⲁϩⲧ̅ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲧⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧϣⲧⲟⲣⲧⲣ̅. 33 ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ⲁⲛ ϫⲉ « ⲙⲁ ⲛϣⲉⲗⲉ- 34 ⲉⲧ » ⲉⲧⲃⲉ ⲡⲓⲙⲉⲧⲉ ⲙⲛ̅ ϯⲙⲛ̅ⲧ- 35 ⲁⲧⲡⲱϣⲉ ⲉⲧⲉ ⲛⲁⲉ[ⲓ ⲛ]ⲉϯ̣[ⲟ] ⲩⲥⲁⲩⲛⲉ 36 ϫⲉ ⲁⲩⲥⲟⲩⲱⲛϥ̅. ⲁⲩⲱ ⲥ[ⲉⲙⲟⲩ]ⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ 129.1 ⲁⲛ ϫⲉ « ⲡⲟⲩⲁⲉⲓⲛ ⲛ̅ⲁⲧϩⲱⲧⲡ̅ 2 ⲁⲩⲱ ⲛ̅ⲁⲧⲕⲱϩⲧ, » ⲉϥϯ ⲟⲩⲁⲉⲓⲛ ⲉⲛ, 3 ⲁⲗⲗⲁ ⲛⲉⲧⲁϩⲣ̅ ⲫⲟⲣⲓ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ ⲉⲩ- 4 ⲉⲓⲣⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁⲩ ⲛ̅ⲟⲩⲁⲉⲓⲛ. ⲉⲧⲉ 5 ⲛⲁⲉⲓ ⲁⲛ ⲛⲉ ⲉⲛⲧⲁϥⲣ̅ ⲫⲟⲣⲓ ⲙ̅ⲙ[ⲁ]ⲩ̣. 6 ⲁⲩⲱ ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ⲁⲛ ϫⲉ « ⲡⲓ- 7 ⲱⲛϩ̅ ϣⲁ ⲉⲛⲏϩⲉ, » ⲉⲧⲉ ⲡⲉⲉⲓ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲓ- 8 ⲁⲧⲙⲟⲩ. ⲁⲩⲱ ⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ « ⲙ̅- 9 ⲡⲉⲧϣⲟⲟⲡ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ ⲧⲏⲣϥ̅ ϩⲁⲡⲗⲱⲥ 10 ϩⲛ̅ⲛ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅ⲧϫⲁⲉⲓⲥ ⲙ̅ⲡⲉⲧⲁⲛⲓⲧ 11 ϩⲛⲛ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧⲡⲱϣⲉ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅[ⲧ]- 12 ⲁⲧϥⲓ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲟⲩⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧϣⲧⲁ ⲙⲛ̅ ⲟⲩ- 13 ⲙⲛ̅ⲧⲁⲧⲣⲓⲕⲉ, ϣⲁ ⲡⲁⲉⲓ ⲉⲧϣⲟⲟⲡ 14 ⲛ̅ⲛⲉⲧⲁϩϫⲓ ϩⲏ. » ⲉⲩ ⲛ̅ⲅⲁⲣ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲕⲉ- 15 ⲟⲩⲉⲉⲓ ⲁⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ ⲁⲣⲁϥ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ 16 ⲛ̅ⲥⲁ « `ⲡ´ⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ » ⲉϥⲟⲉⲓ ⲛ̅ⲛⲓⲡⲧⲏⲣϥ̅, 17 ⲉⲧⲉ ⲡⲉⲉⲓ ⲡⲉ, ⲕⲁⲛ ⲉⲩϣⲁⲛⲙⲟⲩⲧⲉ 18 ⲁⲣⲁϥ ⲛ̅ⲛⲓⲣⲉⲛ {ⲛⲛⲓⲣⲉⲛ} ⲛ̅ⲁⲧⲁⲡⲟⲩ, 19 ⲉⲣⲉⲁⲩϫⲟⲟⲩ ⲁⲩϭⲛϣⲉϫⲉ ⲙ̅ⲙⲁϥ.


Has Smith (or whoever did his translations) mis-translated 'bridegroom' and '[the] bride'?

or does ⲟⲩ ⲙⲁ ⲛ̅ ϣⲉⲗⲉⲉⲧ cover all three terms?

mlinssen wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:19 am τὸν Νυμφῶνα is what the Greek has, that's the very word
That's straighforward for Excerpts of Theodotus (which I think, iirc, the English version has more use of 'bridal chamber')
(as do the others ie. G.Philip and the Tripartite Tractate)
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:31 am
Excerpts of Theodotus has


63 The resting of the spirituals on the Lord’s Day, in the Ogdoad, which is termed the Lord’s Day, is with the mother, wearing their souls, the garments, until the culmination. But the other faithful souls are with the Creator, but at the culmination they also go up into the Ogdoad.

Then the marriage feast shared by all who are saved, until all are made equal and know each other.


64 Thereupon the spiritual elements that have laid aside their souls, together with the mother who escorts the groom, also escort the grooms, their angels, enter into the bridal chamber within the boundary, and come to the vision of the Father, becoming intellectual eternities, in the intellectual and eternal marriages of the syzygy.

65 The “master” of the banquet, the best man of the marriage “and friend of the groom who stands before the bridal chamber, hearing the voice of the groom, rejoices.”

This is his “fullness of joy” and rest.


63 Ἡ μὲν οὖν τῶν πνευματικῶν ἀνάπαυσις ἐν κυριακῇ, ἐν Ὀγδοάδι, ἣ Κυριακὴ ὀνομάζεται, παρὰ τῇ Μητρί, ἐχόντων τὰς ψυχάς, τὰ ἐνδύματα, ἄχρι συντελείας. αἱ δὲ ἄλλαι πισταὶ ψυχαί, παρὰ τῷ Δημιουργῷ, περὶ δὲ τὴν συντέλειαν, ἀναχωροῦσι καὶ αὗται εἰς Ὀγδόαδα.

Εἶτα, τὸ δεῖπνον τῶν γάμων κοινὸν πάντων τῶν σῳζομένων, ἄχρις ἂν ἀπισωθῇ πάντα καὶ ἄλλη`λα´ γνωρίσῃ.


64 Τὸ δὲ ἐντεῦθεν, ἀποθέμενα τὰ πνευματικὰ τὰς ψυχάς, ἅμα τῇ Μητρὶ κομιζομένῃ τὸν Νυμφίον, κομιζόμενα καὶ αὐτὰ τοὺς νυμφίους, τοὺς Ἀγγέλους ἑαυτῶν, εἰς τὸν Νυμφῶνα ἐντὸς τοῦ Ὅρου εἰσίασι, καὶ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ Πατρὸς ὄψιν ἔρχονται, Αἰῶνες νοεροὶ γενόμενα, εἰς τοὺς νοεροὺς καὶ αἰωνίους γάμους τῆς συζυγίας.

65 Ὁ δὲ τοῦ δείπνου μὲν «ἀρχιτρίκλινος,» τῶν γάμων δὲ παράνυμφος «τοῦ Νυμφίου δὲ Φίλος, ἑστὼς ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ νυμφῶνος, ἀκούων τῆς φωνῆς τοῦ Νυμφίου, χαρᾷ χαίρει.»

Τοῦτο αὐτοῦ «τὸ Πλήρωμα τῆς χαρᾶς» καὶ τῆς ἀναπαύσεως.


They're just using the word as it exists in the NT. The question is: where did the NT get this non existing word from?
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