Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by davidmartin »

Simon Magus visits Tyre to save Helena 'God's wisdom', Jesus in Mark goes there for no good reason to speak to a woman that's wise, what's up with this?
I been pondering recently if the narrative was originally Simon based. All this stuff, Simon carrying the cross. It's too convenient. A docetic charm would be perfect for that gig - not keen on Simon, don't worry he was just the host, said nothing, did nothing. Then next up, no he wasn't the host, Jesus was
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ConfusedEnoch
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by ConfusedEnoch »

That is very interesting... I'm not very well versed in the New Testament so could you point me to the verses where it is said the woman in Tyre was wise? I can't seem to find it online.

Also, is Simon of Cyrene (the one who carried Jesus' cross) the same as Simon Magus?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

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"The people who spoke of Simon, Origen observed, are Christians ... as a religious group Simonians only proved a threat to other Christians because some of their practices and beliefs were proximate to their own ... They believed in a heavenly Saviour figure who was crucified in Judea. They upheld a Trinitarian concept of God, though they eventually saw the Trinity as the manifestation of a single figure - Simon himself.

"This focus on Simon was, it seems, a mid-second century development (after the writing of the Great Declaration Commentary a text by a devotee of Simon preserved in Refutation of All Heresies 6:14-18) ...

"By the time of Irenaeus, Simon and his companion Helen were identified with divine entities in pre-existing Simonian theology (Mind - the Great Power - and Thought). A story of how Mind came to save imprisoned Thought* was allegorized to refer to the redemption of every human soul. Salvation in Simonian Christianity was by the gracious intervention of Simon-Christ, not by human works [Irenaeus A.H. 123.3; cf. Eph 2:8-9].

* "The story of Thought separated from her true dwelling was reminiscent of the Homeric story of Helen of Troy. Significantly, ""Helen" does not appear in the Declaration Commentary (an indication of its early composition). Justin, however, reported reported that a Helen of Tyre joined up with Simon : Justin's story might have been a literalization of the allegory of Simon as Mind and Helen as Thought" [p.55]

"... Simonians came to see [Jesus] Christ as a [lower] manifestation of Simon who had revealed himself in a higher way in Samaria (as Father) ... Irenaeus reported Simon came to Samaria as Father, to Judea as Son, and to the nations as Spirit [Irenaeus A.H. 1.23.1]. The trinitarian language is [of course] Christian, yet the theology seems deliberately to oppose the claim in Acts. Not only was Simon capable of bestowing the Spirit on his converts, he was Spirit, and in this capacity [is said to have] saved the nations of the world."




"Purportedly, Menander believed he was sent as an ambassador from "the highest and secret Power" [Tertullian On the Soul 50.2., following Irenaeus A.H. 1.23.5] ... reminiscent of Paul, who claimed authorization by a vision of Christ ...

Menander made a sensible entrepreneurial move by establishing his brand of Christian teaching in the metropolis of Antioch ... [then] the third largest city in the Roman empire ... In 67 CE, a Jew by the name of Antiochus accused his own Judean brethren of conniving to burn the whole city down to the ground ... Exploding with rage, Antiochenes torched several on the spot ... Judeans were compelled to offer sacrifice in the Greek manner. Those who refused were [also] slaughtered ... [within a few more years, with Titus's Jewish tax, among other Antiochene events] Antiochene Christians had financial and political motives to distinguish themselves from Judeans ...

"Menandrian Christianity was similar in some ways to Simonian thought. Equally significant, however, are features shared with Johannine Christianity: an unknown savior figure who employs a baptismal rite. Salvation is the grant of eternal life; it is universal (meant for all nations) but exclusive, saving only a small group ... the fact that [Menander] maintained a baptismal rite would have signalled his Christian identity ... [an] that that other Christians like Justin Martyr and Eusebius strove to undercut [Justin 1 Apol 26.6; Eusebius H.E. 3.26.4]. Menander had, according to Justin, many followers [1 Apol 26.4]."




" ... early Christian theologian Saturninus bestowed two images which help to recall the contours of his thought, namely the spark and the worm. The worm was an image for Adam when he was first created. He could not stand upright, so he slithered on the ground like a worm. What caused him to stand was a spark sent down from heaven originating with the highest deity. This divine spark entered Adam and because of it, Adam not only stood upright, he towered - intellectually and spiritually - above his creators.

" ... the theological seeds sown by Saturninus bore much fruit. Along with Johannine Christians [+/- those associated with Cerinthus], Saturninians were among the first to create a strong ideological boundary between their group and competing Jewish (and Christian circles) who worshiped the Jewish deity. Saturninus is the first known Antiochene theologian whose theology derives largely from exegesis of scriptural texts (with a healthy dose of Jewish tradition). He was determined to revise the book of Genesis. In this revision, Saturninus was the first Christian clearly to identify the Judean god as an angel, one of seven wicked creators." [p.82]


M David Litwa, Found Christianities, 2022
Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue May 03, 2022 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by MrMacSon »

ConfusedEnoch wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:27 am Also, is Simon of Cyrene (the one who carried Jesus' cross) the same as Simon Magus?
The Magus in 'Simon Magus' is a essentially a pejorative, a sneer.

There's a lot of speculation about why Simon of Cyrene appears when he does and in the role he does.

I've just wondered, having recited part of the account of Simon of Samaria, to whom Simon Magus is usually thought to apply, if both names are 'red herrings' / smoke n mirror tactics to further side-line the figure of Simon of Samaria who, by all accounts, was also portrayed as an early first century AD/CE Savior figure.
davidmartin
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by davidmartin »

ConfusedEnoch wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:27 am That is very interesting... I'm not very well versed in the New Testament so could you point me to the verses where it is said the woman in Tyre was wise? I can't seem to find it online.

Also, is Simon of Cyrene (the one who carried Jesus' cross) the same as Simon Magus?
OK so in Mark 7:24 Jesus goes to Tyre in Southern Lebanon. I believe this is the only place he steps outside the holy land during his ministry (Decapolis?)
So it's odd. Why go all that way. Mark could have given us a reason but flunks it "He entered a house and didn't want anyone to know it" !!!
This only adds to the mystery. We don't need secret Mark, Mark is secretive already

There he meets the Greek lady ("She is Hellene") then tells us she isn't actually Greek
The famous scene follows of the dogs under the table, but it's 'doggies' really the form of dogs is diminutive and she has a reply for that
The wisdom part comes in with the 'for such a reply you may go', for her clever reply showing she talks his language. It's not her great faith or anything it's more a wisdom reply and he likes it. You can imagine him smiling and thinking 'she gets it'
Then Jesus goes back to Galilee again - With Helena following him would be the Simon gospel because that's why he went there in the first place, to free Helena

It's worthy of consideration this scene is transposed in John's gospel where the meeting place is a well on Mount Shechem in Samaria instead. Here the woman with many husbands does do some preaching. Talking of John's gospel, it's a romance. It's got a wedding and riffs on the Song of Songs when Mary alone see's the resurrected Jesus, not to mention the anointing with oil and who is the beloved disciple. The Simon gospel would easily explain all this because Simon and Helena were married and worked together. But that had to be veiled for some reason. I remember I once suggested to a Catholic girl Jesus and Mary were married and she got really angry, why? What's wrong with that. Crazy.

I don't know. A Simon origin of the gospel story makes some sense. They were reworking his story and presumably his teachings, like the gospel of Thomas would then be his stuff with the gnostics coming along later as well

In effect this proposal changes nothing except it infers an alternative base to Christianity not a James the Just style one or an apostle Paul style one, the debate would only be about what that base was, how Jewish, how gnostic, etc. The name of the person, Simon, Jesus hardly matters
rgprice
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by rgprice »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:25 am
ConfusedEnoch wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:27 am Also, is Simon of Cyrene (the one who carried Jesus' cross) the same as Simon Magus?
The Magus in 'Simon Magus' is a essentially a pejorative, a sneer.

There's a lot of speculation about why Simon of Cyrene appears when he does and in the role he does.

I've just wondered, having recited part of the account of Simon of Samaria, to whom Simon Magus is usually thought to apply, if both names are 'red herrings' / smoke n mirror tactics to further side-line the figure of Simon of Samaria who, by all accounts, was also portrayed as an early first century AD/CE Savior figure.
Note that Peter is first introduced as Simon. Jesus tells Peter to take up his cross and follow him. In the end, Peter abandon's Jesus and a different Simon takes up Jesus' cross and follows him.
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ConfusedEnoch
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by ConfusedEnoch »

rgprice wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 4:38 am
MrMacSon wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:25 am
ConfusedEnoch wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:27 am Also, is Simon of Cyrene (the one who carried Jesus' cross) the same as Simon Magus?
The Magus in 'Simon Magus' is a essentially a pejorative, a sneer.

There's a lot of speculation about why Simon of Cyrene appears when he does and in the role he does.

I've just wondered, having recited part of the account of Simon of Samaria, to whom Simon Magus is usually thought to apply, if both names are 'red herrings' / smoke n mirror tactics to further side-line the figure of Simon of Samaria who, by all accounts, was also portrayed as an early first century AD/CE Savior figure.
Note that Peter is first introduced as Simon. Jesus tells Peter to take up his cross and follow him. In the end, Peter abandon's Jesus and a different Simon takes up Jesus' cross and follows him.
Huh, interesting. Could it have anything to do with the etymon of the name Simon, "Listening"? The real Simon would be the one who heard (and followed) Jesus...
davidmartin
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by davidmartin »

Found "that Simon was so-called, according to his followers, because he was obedient to the father"
I waded through all of this http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/9764/1/9764_6558.PDF
its got all the references in one place. i think overall their conclusions are hit and miss. some duds, some good insights
rgprice
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by rgprice »

So, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to a lost narrative that was referenced by the writer or writers of the earliest familiar Gospel(s), but is this enough? If such a narrative existed, then wouldn't there be more solid evidence for it? Why does no one mention such a narrative directly? Why has such a narrative not been found?
schillingklaus
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Re: Hypothetic first narrative about Christ the savior

Post by schillingklaus »

The core of the Christian story was of course the feeding of the multitudes, as this event makes the eucharist a fulfilling of the Law and the Prophets. Christianity was built around teh eucharist for without the central ritual event it makes no sense as a populist religion.
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