John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

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mlinssen
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by mlinssen »

Bezae

https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-NN-00002-00041/667

Yellow highlight is different: extra unless it contains further emphasis; underlined is a different verbal or noun form; red highlight is "missing" in Bezae; between brackets is swapped order

κατα δε την εορτην
απεαυεν
αυτοις
ενα δεσμειον ον αν ητουντο
ην [δε - ο] λεγομενος βαραββας
μετα των στασιαστων δεδεμενος
οιτινες εν τη στασει · [πεποιηκεισαν - φονον]
και αναβας ολος ο οχλος · ηρξατο αιτεισθαι αυτο(ν)
καθως αει εποιει αυτοις
ο δε πειλατος αποκρειθεις [λεγει - αυτοις]
θελετε απολυσω · ὑμῖν τον βασιλεα των ϊουδαιων
ηδι γαρ οτι δια φθονον
παρεδωκαν αυτον οι αρχιερεις
οι δε αρχιερεις
επεισαν τω οχλω ϊνα μαλλον τὸν
βαραββαν απολυση αυτοις
ο δε πειλατος πάλιν αποκριθεις ειπεν (ἔλεγεν) αυτοις
τι ουν θελεται ποιησω ⸆
ὃν λέγετε τὸν
βασιλει των ϊουδαιω(ν)
οι δε [εκραξαν - παλιν] λεγοντες
στρν αυτον
ο δε πειλατος ελεγεν αυτοις
τι γαρ κακον εποιησεν
οι δε περισσως εκραζον στν αυτον
ο δε πειλατος
βουλόμενος τῷ ὄχλῳ τὸ ἱκανὸν ποιῆσαι
απελυσεν αυτοις τον βαραββαν
καὶ τον δε ιην φλαγελλωσας παρεδωκεν
ινα στη · οι δε στρατιωται
απηγαγον αυτον εσω εις την αυλην
ο εστιν πραιτωριον
και συνκαλουσιν ολην την σπειραν
και ενδυδισκουσιν αυτον πορφυραν
και επιτιθεασιν αυτω
ακανθινον στεφανον
και ηρξαντο ασπαζεσθαι αυτον
χαιραι βασιλευ των ϊουδαιων

Berean Interlinear equivalent:

Mark 15:6 Κατὰ (At) δὲ (then) ἑορτὴν (the feast), ἀπέλυεν (he used to release) αὐτοῖς (to them) ἕνα (one) δέσμιον (prisoner), ὃν (whom) παρῃτοῦντο (they requested).
7 ἦν (There was) δὲ (then) ὁ (the one) λεγόμενος (called) Βαραββᾶς (Barabbas), μετὰ (with) τῶν (the) στασιαστῶν (rebels) δεδεμένος (having been bound), οἵτινες (who) ἐν (in) τῇ (the) στάσει (insurrection) φόνον (murder) πεποιήκεισαν (had committed).
8 καὶ (And) ἀναβὰς (having cried out), ὁ (the) ὄχλος (crowd) ἤρξατο (began) αἰτεῖσθαι (to beg him to do) καθὼς (as usually) ἐποίει (he did) αὐτοῖς (for them).
9 Ὁ (-) δὲ (But) Πιλᾶτος (Pilate) ἀπεκρίθη (answered) αὐτοῖς (them), λέγων (saying), “Θέλετε (Wish you that) ἀπολύσω (I should release) ὑμῖν (to you) τὸν (the) Βασιλέα (King) τῶν (of the) Ἰουδαίων (Jews)?”
10 ἐγίνωσκεν (He was aware) γὰρ (for) ὅτι (that) διὰ (because of) φθόνον (envy) παραδεδώκεισαν (had delivered up) αὐτὸν (Him) οἱ (the) ἀρχιερεῖς (chief priests).
11 Οἱ (-) δὲ (But) ἀρχιερεῖς (the chief priests) ἀνέσεισαν (stirred up) τὸν (the) ὄχλον (crowd) ἵνα (so that) μᾶλλον (instead) τὸν (-) Βαραββᾶν (Barabbas) ἀπολύσῃ (he might release) αὐτοῖς (to them).
12 Ὁ (-) δὲ (And) Πιλᾶτος (Pilate) πάλιν (again) ἀποκριθεὶς (answering), ἔλεγεν (was saying) αὐτοῖς (to them), “Τί (What) οὖν (then) ‹θέλετε› (do you wish that) ποιήσω (I should do) ὃν (to Him) λέγετε (you call) τὸν (the) Βασιλέα (King) τῶν (of the) Ἰουδαίων (Jews)?”
13 Οἱ (-) δὲ (And) πάλιν (again) ἔκραξαν (they cried out), “Σταύρωσον (Crucify) αὐτόν (Him)!”
14 Ὁ (-) δὲ (And) Πιλᾶτος (Pilate) ἔλεγεν (was saying) αὐτοῖς (to them), “Τί (What) γὰρ (indeed) ἐποίησεν (did He commit) κακόν (evil)?” Οἱ (-) δὲ (But) περισσῶς (much more) ἔκραξαν (they shouted), “Σταύρωσον (Crucify) αὐτόν (Him)!”
15 Ὁ (-) δὲ (And) Πιλᾶτος (Pilate), βουλόμενος (desiring) τῷ (to the) ὄχλῳ (crowd) τὸ (that which was) ἱκανὸν (satisfactory) ποιῆσαι (to do), ἀπέλυσεν (released) αὐτοῖς (to them) τὸν (-) Βαραββᾶν (Barabbas), καὶ (and) παρέδωκεν (he delivered) τὸν (-) Ἰησοῦν (Jesus), φραγελλώσας (having flogged him), ἵνα (that) σταυρωθῇ (He might be crucified).
16 Οἱ (-) δὲ (And) στρατιῶται (the soldiers) ἀπήγαγον (led away) αὐτὸν (him) ἔσω (into) τῆς (the) αὐλῆς (palace), ὅ (that) ἐστιν (is) Πραιτώριον (the Praetorium), καὶ (and) συνκαλοῦσιν (they call together) ὅλην (all) τὴν (the) σπεῖραν (cohort).
17 καὶ (And) ἐνδιδύσκουσιν (they put on) αὐτὸν (Him) πορφύραν (purple), καὶ (and) περιτιθέασιν (placed on) αὐτῷ (Him), πλέξαντες (having twisted together) ἀκάνθινον (of thorns) στέφανον (a crown),
18 καὶ (and) ἤρξαντο (they began) ἀσπάζεσθαι (to salute) αὐτόν (Him), “Χαῖρε (Hail), Βασιλεῦ (King) τῶν (of the) Ἰουδαίων (Jews)!”

I'd suggest to get the proper text first before drawing any conclusions - there are significant changes in between Bezae and what has been made that into now
[/quote]

A few very interesting nuances here

1. βασιλεα - kingdom or queen: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... si%2Fleia1 yet τὸν (the) Βασιλέα (King) makes no sense at all
2. πειλατος is a true example of iotacism for a change
3. στν is abbreviated for staurosan etc but not a staurogram
4. "The one you call" (King of the Jews) is added later on
5. βουλόμενος (desiring) τῷ (to the) ὄχλῳ (crowd) τὸ (that which was) ἱκανὸν (satisfactory) ποιῆσαι (to do) is added later on
6. There are subtleties in different prefixes to verbs and tenses as well, and a few other things. I'd have to look into that later but feel free to pitch in

This is once again the point where I see φλαγελλωσας, the unique Roman loanword used only here for "flogging", as is the case in Matthew as well: on all others occasions the native Greek is used and I can't help but feel that we are looking at a giant redaction
davidmartin
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by davidmartin »

ML they tend to misrepresent is more what i meant i think they become useful when you can get into their mindset a bit
I thought Giuseppe was convinced J the B was in the EV
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Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Giuseppe »

davidmartin wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:26 pm I thought Giuseppe was convinced J the B was in the EV
yes, but the real question is: is John the Baptist always an enemy of Jesus in all Mcn or, as Markan prioritists contend, at least in Mcn 20:1-4 John's authority is recognized positively by Jesus?

That is crucial to decide definitely who comes before, if Mcn or Mark.
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Giuseppe »

My error has been to ignore until now the Wautier's reconstruction of Mcn 20:1-4:

Some Pharisees asked him: "By what authority do you teach?"
He answered them with a question: "Was John's baptism from Heaven or from men?
5 They said to themselves, "If we answer that John's baptism was of a human nature, they will stone us immediately.
6 So they answered that they did not know.
7 Then Christ asked them, "Why did you not believe in him?
8 Neither will I tell you by what virtue I do all this."

The singular difference with the Klinghardt's reconstruction is the curious absence, in Wautier's reconstruction, of the Pharisees considering the option, in the answer, of a provenance of the John's baptism "from heaven".

Possibly the reason is that Wautier interpreted the passage in this sense:
the pharisees knew well that the John's baptism was not "from heaven", John being only a mere human, however they feared the crowd therefore they didn't answer.

Since they didn't recognize officially the human origin of John's baptism, so Jesus didn't mention his own divine origin.

So, the lesson would be: you have to recognize before the human too human origin of every previous Jewish prophet, included John, and only after you can learn, by mouth of Jesus himself, that Jesus is of different (divine) origin.

OPPOSITION BETWEEN JESUS AND JOHN IS IN VIEW HERE.

ADDENDA:
I wonder if there is awareness of a tradition according to which Jesus was stoned because he did what the Pharisees feared to do: to proclaim publicly that John's Baptism was "from men", human too human.
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by schillingklaus »

The origin of J's baptism is the legend of the herald (kerux) found in Corpus Hermeticum IV. Apologists fail to understand this. The herald, even if a dumb human, may still be equipped with divine authority, such as Paul relying on divine revelation and not on vulgar tradition.
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by mlinssen »

schillingklaus wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:18 pm The origin of J's baptism is the legend of the herald (kerux) found in Corpus Hermeticum IV. Apologists fail to understand this. The herald, even if a dumb human, may still be equipped with divine authority, such as Paul relying on divine revelation and not on vulgar tradition.

Malachi 3:1“Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me.a Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts.

1Ἰδοὺ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξέφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ κύριος ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος Παντοκράτωρ

.

Malachi 3:1 always gets quoted, but no one seems to read the whole verse.
John couldn't have a temple of course, that would have been evidence - but meet is what they do, and to avoid a conversation Mark just has them do "something" and it is the most obvious thing. Which all come to regret later
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by davidmartin »

Or there's 2 competing traditions about John at work
In one he is the traditional prophet type. Marcion would have Jesus oppose this John. In Luke there is some tension between them, could there have been direct opposition in Marcion's EV? The Lukan birth narrative has Jesus and John as relatives who knew each other, yet John doesn't appear to know who Jesus is later on, suggesting that the Lukan redactor seeks a more positive view of John than what he found in the EV? Both the Lukan redactor and the EV seem to view John as the traditional prophet type but this suits both Marcion and the Luke redactor! So can we assume Marcion would have Jesus opposing John and that opposition then being a centre piece of Marcionite gospel?

But I think there's another John tradition where he isn't a traditional prophet type, he is an enigmatic revealer or prophet like Jesus himself. This is found in John's gospel. In this version there's no tension between them and Jesus actually 'has' John's baptism, he is a fully fledged John initiate
The synoptics don't seem to know this tradition, is John correcting the synoptics here? The entire Johannine prologue might as well have been the words of this John

Are we seeing the synoptics fighting either supporting or opposing John as a traditionalist prophet while John is presenting him as a revelatory prophet?
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Giuseppe »

schillingklaus wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:18 pm The origin of J's baptism is the legend of the herald (kerux) found in Corpus Hermeticum IV. Apologists fail to understand this. The herald, even if a dumb human, may still be equipped with divine authority, such as Paul relying on divine revelation and not on vulgar tradition.
Qualitatively, Magne's research on the anti-demiurgist origins of eucharist and crucifixion and hymn to Philippians is infinitely better than his theories about the origin of the Baptist.
If the Baptist was connected with an anti-demiurgist mythology (as Magne would argue), then why was "Marcion" (anti-demiurgist) so hostile to John the Baptist?

I should check again what Magne says on Mcn 20:1-4.

ADDENDA:
Nothing. Magne doesn't comment on Mcn 20:1-4 and parallels.
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Giuseppe »

Raschke also has invented his own Marcion who loves John the Baptist.
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:36 am Or there's 2 competing traditions about John at work
In one he is the traditional prophet type. Marcion would have Jesus oppose this John. In Luke there is some tension between them, could there have been direct opposition in Marcion's EV? The Lukan birth narrative has Jesus and John as relatives who knew each other, yet John doesn't appear to know who Jesus is later on, suggesting that the Lukan redactor seeks a more positive view of John than what he found in the EV? Both the Lukan redactor and the EV seem to view John as the traditional prophet type but this suits both Marcion and the Luke redactor! So can we assume Marcion would have Jesus opposing John and that opposition then being a centre piece of Marcionite gospel?

But I think there's another John tradition where he isn't a traditional prophet type, he is an enigmatic revealer or prophet like Jesus himself. This is found in John's gospel. In this version there's no tension between them and Jesus actually 'has' John's baptism, he is a fully fledged John initiate
The synoptics don't seem to know this tradition, is John correcting the synoptics here? The entire Johannine prologue might as well have been the words of this John

Are we seeing the synoptics fighting either supporting or opposing John as a traditionalist prophet while John is presenting him as a revelatory prophet?
John Presbyter is absolutely fixing the Synoptics by having John B only testify to Jesus - he is purely a witness and not an enabler, Jesus is fully independent and self-serving in John P.
There's no tension in the Synoptics between John and Jesus AFAIK, but in *Ev there certainly is.
And it's fun that indeed Luke adds the birth narrative yet lets the checking up on Jesus by John's disciples remain intact - with puzzling results

In John P John B just moved entirely to the background - and so much so that the question arises what the value of his testimony is other than his own that he's been told by Gawd about Jesus - and if John P were to precede the other NT gospels I doubt whether John B did any heavy lifting.
So I can only surmise that John P comes last and *really* fixes Mark by having John B do no baptism of Jesus at all, and just sit there and point at Jesus, frequently, saying "he da man!"
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