John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:27 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:50 am Yes, John is a riddle. He breathes all of Thomas when we look at the father orientation yet he's very fixated in the carrying over to Peter, something which I believe was added later.
there is more connection than I thought, interesting information
I can think of numerous reasons why John might not quote the sayings i'd throw on the table
1 They really were 'secret' originally so John wished to exclude them (even if they were already in Mark) but alludes to them by 'the words of life'
2 They were somewhat disputed, controversial (Papias, mentions strange sayings). To avoid association with rivals that used them, they're omitted

peter intrudes a lot. i liked the scholar that said the beloved disciple was Mary and pointed to where the text got purposely muddled to make her male.
James David Audlin does that - his reconstrution and work on John is magnificent
going back to John the baptist I was playing around with the idea that the only person who actually 'anoints' Jesus is her and not the baptist at all!
that's a strange reversal but it factually is true from what the text says. the first miracle at the wedding Jesus doesn't want to do it 'my time has not come' yes, because he hasn't been baptised yet? Then suddenly he can do it
The problem is the chronology is wrong, the anointing by Mary would have to be moved to the wedding and the reason for it completely different. But it's still kind of appealing.
Ow now there's a nice thought!

If you look at Philip in the correct XRS translation, you see that he talks about full-blown baptism, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - while even receiving said Spirit.
And still they call themselves Chrestians. It isn't until the Chrism, the anointing, that they "become Christians"

Here's the right transcript for the relevant part: use that in combination with Thomas Paterson Brown and remember that he uses Anointed for X(R)S sometimes, among others:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8881&p=135632&hilit ... rs#p135571

https://metalogos.org/files/philip.html

And basically what you get then is this:

viewtopic.php?p=129716#p129716
davidmartin
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by davidmartin »

mlinssen wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:56 am Ow now there's a nice thought!

If you look at Philip in the correct XRS translation, you see that he talks about full-blown baptism, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - while even receiving said Spirit.
And still they call themselves Chrestians. It isn't until the Chrism, the anointing, that they "become Christians"
This raises another very interesting point, there's more than one sacrament surely Jesus would have to have gone through all of them?
Baptism, the Chrism and also the Marriage sacrament. The romance gospel has it all. The romantic well scene, the wedding, the erotic anointing and song of songs based resurrection reunion with Mary on her own, the mysterious beloved disciple. Either this is co-incidence or it's what it looks like, intentionally veiled but not very much. My theory is this was all intentional and consciously veiled so it would get accepted by the orthodox and the true meaning easy enough to reveal to the right people. Exactly what Irenaeus complains is going on with the gospels. The implication is those providing the gospel sources didn't believe quite the same thing as the orthodox church on the receiving end of them did. The gospel of Philip is probably much closer to the real meaning. That is, I think, what happened
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mlinssen
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 5:44 am
mlinssen wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:56 am Ow now there's a nice thought!

If you look at Philip in the correct XRS translation, you see that he talks about full-blown baptism, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - while even receiving said Spirit.
And still they call themselves Chrestians. It isn't until the Chrism, the anointing, that they "become Christians"
This raises another very interesting point, there's more than one sacrament surely Jesus would have to have gone through all of them?
Baptism, the Chrism and also the Marriage sacrament. The romance gospel has it all. The romantic well scene, the wedding, the erotic anointing and song of songs based resurrection reunion with Mary on her own, the mysterious beloved disciple. Either this is co-incidence or it's what it looks like, intentionally veiled but not very much. My theory is this was all intentional and consciously veiled so it would get accepted by the orthodox and the true meaning easy enough to reveal to the right people. Exactly what Irenaeus complains is going on with the gospels. The implication is those providing the gospel sources didn't believe quite the same thing as the orthodox church on the receiving end of them did. The gospel of Philip is probably much closer to the real meaning. That is, I think, what happened
I agree - as the story developed, the protagonist needs to remain top dog of course and receive all the nice treats. Audlin ends with the reunion of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion as one, doesn't discuss the details though LOL.
Yeah, John is sneaky, stealthy, a wolf in sheep's clothes - or perhaps they couldn't ditch him just as they felt obliged to include a redacted copy of *Ev. Perhaps John was earlier and just nobody bitched about the remake - but he's the outlier for sure

The difference between the providers and the receivers is that the former didn't have a fixed goal and roadmap in mind perhaps - yet look at the Church and then at the NT - almost everything of daily Christian life is dogma with just a few dozen quotes used from all of the NT

Marriage sacrament? What did I miss?
Charles Wilson
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Charles Wilson »

mlinssen wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:55 pm
Charles Wilson wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 1:00 pm Mlinnsen --

Couldn't PM you for some reason but...
mlinssen wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:50 am "(77d) Split a piece of wood, and I am there.
(77e) Lift up the stone, and you will find me there' "
There's a good book I don't currently have that explores "Asherah, Consort of El" and the development from Asherah goddess to Asherah Pole to small stick/totem just before the Israelites were carted off for 70 years.

So I read the above and I wonder if there might be a Semitic/Sumerian Thread going through that one that might have echoes of El - Asherah.
I have two remarks about the above: it's a downward movement followed by an upward movement; and IS is everywhere, as he is a concept, a meaning, a symbol, awareness perhaps - and invisible, hidden in the wood and under the stone.
Which is how El ends up in representation.

https://www.amazon.com/Cult-Asherah-Anc ... 721&sr=8-7

CW
Charles Wilson
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Charles Wilson »

mlinssen wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 10:55 pm
Charles Wilson wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 1:00 pm Mlinnsen --
mlinssen wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:50 am "(77d) Split a piece of wood, and I am there.
(77e) Lift up the stone, and you will find me there' "
There's a good book I don't currently have that explores "Asherah, Consort of El" and the development from Asherah goddess to Asherah Pole to small stick/totem just before the Israelites were carted off for 70 years.

So I read the above and I wonder if there might be a Semitic/Sumerian Thread going through that one that might have echoes of El - Asherah.
I have two remarks about the above: it's a downward movement followed by an upward movement; and IS is everywhere, as he is a concept, a meaning, a symbol, awareness perhaps - and invisible, hidden in the wood and under the stone.
Which is how El ends up in representation.

https://www.amazon.com/Cult-Asherah-Anc ... 721&sr=8-7

CW
schillingklaus
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by schillingklaus »

Pre-Christian gnosis derives from the blasphemous reading of the early chapters of Genesis, which sees the Jewish god as a malevolent or idiotic being creating mankind nude and blind, which splits mankind into genders, and which prohibits them, with lies, to eat the fruit of the tree of gnosis; while the serpent instructs mankind appropriately, instituting thus the first eucharist. This is incompatible with Marcionism, which sees Jesus and his god as unknown before Paul's mission and thus not able to intervene with mankind in paradise.

Christianity stands at the end of a Judaizing evolution which turned the serpend into persistent evil, identified YHWH with The Father, and thence identified the saviour (institutor of the eucharist) with a messiah expected by Scripture.
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mlinssen
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by mlinssen »

schillingklaus wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:08 pm Pre-Christian gnosis derives from the blasphemous reading of the early chapters of Genesis, which sees the Jewish god as a malevolent or idiotic being creating mankind nude and blind, which splits mankind into genders, and which prohibits them, with lies, to eat the fruit of the tree of gnosis; while the serpent instructs mankind appropriately, instituting thus the first eucharist. This is incompatible with Marcionism, which sees Jesus and his god as unknown before Paul's mission and thus not able to intervene with mankind in paradise.

Christianity stands at the end of a Judaizing evolution which turned the serpend into persistent evil, identified YHWH with The Father, and thence identified the saviour (institutor of the eucharist) with a messiah expected by Scripture.
Pre-Christian gnosis was a natural filling of the void created by having only a narrative like the NT, which in itself was based on the the sayings in Thomas.
There was no Creation story to this new religion so one was sought after

It has nothing to do with Judaism precisely because it had nothing to do with Judaism - and it is perfectly compatible with Marcionism; in fact it is a logical consequence of Marcionism

Of course we find certain elements from the Tanakh, as we do find certain elements from other religious books
davidmartin
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by davidmartin »

mlinssen wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 6:20 am I agree - as the story developed, the protagonist needs to remain top dog of course and receive all the nice treats. Audlin ends with the reunion of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion as one, doesn't discuss the details though LOL.
Yeah, John is sneaky, stealthy, a wolf in sheep's clothes - or perhaps they couldn't ditch him just as they felt obliged to include a redacted copy of *Ev. Perhaps John was earlier and just nobody bitched about the remake - but he's the outlier for sure

The difference between the providers and the receivers is that the former didn't have a fixed goal and roadmap in mind perhaps - yet look at the Church and then at the NT - almost everything of daily Christian life is dogma with just a few dozen quotes used from all of the NT

Marriage sacrament? What did I miss?
I need to read more of Audlin. From what I saw he is onto something with what he's reading into the narrative and breaking new ground there
The only complaint is I once emailed him, yeah he replied, and he was good natured and didn't piss all over my theory but he didn't agree that the Epistle of Maria the Proselyte to Ignatius might be genuine with the reasons - was hoping to pass it on so he could work it into one of his books! Other than that great guy

The marriage sacrament is the bridal chamber thing in Philip. I don't have much time for ritualistic interpretations, the bottom line and I think whole point is to present God as an essentially romantic deity against a fearsome, harsh one and the 'marriage' just seals that deal. This romantic deity would be fine with Jesus and Mary getting hitched on earth. Then along comes these other preachers with their own ideas screwing around with the original template, what happens? They become more dominant and the earlier bunch are forced to sneak their version into the narrative, so they made John's gospel. There's some injustice there

So I think the 3 most original texts is Thomas, John and the Odes. Mix these up together and you get a close approximation for the original gospel which had already defined it's terms. This is my conclusion after spending 30 years studying this stuff, from knowing zero at the start!
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by mlinssen »

James and I way too frequently contact one another and we go back a while too - and we agree on a lot but disagree on a whole lot more. We're both stubborn asses and we apply the same methods that we use for our own research in order to evaluate that of others - and that's why we agree with little that the other has to say because our methods are in sync with the field that we study

I have a pristine text that James continuously emends for which I stopped berating him after a while, and James has a pile of fragmentary texts in all kinds of languages, none of which I'm familiar with, that all disagree to a great extent with the main John that we have. We are opposites really, shaped by our own methodology that gets dictated by the situation that we find ourselves in. He's extremely broadly oriented and learned and very, very kind

He's aiming for this summer by the way, and it currently looks like it will be 5 volumes in total
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by neilgodfrey »

schillingklaus wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:08 pm Pre-Christian gnosis derives from the blasphemous reading of the early chapters of Genesis, which sees the Jewish god as a malevolent or idiotic being creating mankind nude and blind, which splits mankind into genders, and which prohibits them, with lies, to eat the fruit of the tree of gnosis; while the serpent instructs mankind appropriately, instituting thus the first eucharist. This is incompatible with Marcionism, which sees Jesus and his god as unknown before Paul's mission and thus not able to intervene with mankind in paradise.

Christianity stands at the end of a Judaizing evolution which turned the serpend into persistent evil, identified YHWH with The Father, and thence identified the saviour (institutor of the eucharist) with a messiah expected by Scripture.
What is the evidence that the "pre-Christian gnosis" ideas existed before Christianity? What group/s do we know of with these ideas?
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