John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Giuseppe »

The existence of pre-Christian anti-demiurgists appears to be witnessed by Philo, who attacks a group of anti-nomian people with the same zeal by which the Fathers will attack then the Christian anti-demiurgists.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:20 am The existence of pre-Christian anti-demiurgists appears to be witnessed by Philo, who attacks a group of anti-nomian people with the same zeal by which the Fathers will attack then the Christian anti-demiurgists.
Can you be more specific? Book? chapter?
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Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:02 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:20 am The existence of pre-Christian anti-demiurgists appears to be witnessed by Philo, who attacks a group of anti-nomian people with the same zeal by which the Fathers will attack then the Christian anti-demiurgists.
Can you be more specific? Book? chapter?
I remember perfectly that it was a quote of Philo done on this forum by Andrew Criddle, in answer to my question about a Jewish scholar who argued the same point.
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Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Giuseppe »

The Jewish scholar is Friedländer. A research on this forum should help.
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Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

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This was my comment:
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:09 am So the scholar Friedlander about Philo:
The Cainites venerated Cain as the divine power, rejected all moral conventions, and rejected the Law along with its God. And what, asks Friedlander, is 'Christian' about that? The Alexandrian school provides the most plausible link for the origin of this heresy. Indeed, the Cainite sect was already well known to Philo. Friedlander quotes in this connection On the Posterity and Exile of Cain. In this text 'Cain' is a symbol of heresy, and the specifics of the heresy represented by him are such that one can only conclude that Philo is arguing against a philosophizing sect characterized not only by construcfing myths contrary to the truth, but by gross antinomianism. Philo speaks against these heretics precisely as Irenaeus speaks against the Gnostics. There can be no doubt that the heretics combated by Philo are the forerunners of the Christian Gnostics later combated by the church fathers.
https://www.dhushara.com/book/consum/gnos/jgnos.htm

(my bold)

Alas a witness of true Gnostics !!!
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neilgodfrey
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

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Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm The Jewish scholar is Friedländer. A research on this forum should help.
Thanks. Will follow through. So far, from Pearson's citations, I have the following reading ahead of me:

Friedländer, Michael. “La secte de Melchisédec et l’Épître aux Hébreux.” Revue des études juives 5, no. 9 (1882): 1–26.https://www.persee.fr/doc/rjuiv_0484-86 ... m_5_9_3304
———. “La secte de Melchisédec et l’Épître aux Hébreux (fin).” Revue des études juives 6, no. 12 (1883): 187–99. https://www.persee.fr/doc/rjuiv_0484-86 ... _6_12_3353
Moritz Friedländer. Der vorchristliche jüdische Gnosticismus. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1898. http://archive.org/details/dervorchristlic00friegoog.

I suppose Sinhoue already has these under his belt.
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Giuseppe
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:48 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:36 pm The Jewish scholar is Friedländer. A research on this forum should help.
Thanks. Will follow through. So far, from Pearson's citations, I have the following reading ahead of me:
this is what I was referring originally as Andrew's quote, i.e. what would be the textual evidence of pre-Christian anti-demiurgists, according to Friedlander:
andrewcriddle wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 11:32 am
Giuseppe wrote:
If the Odes are directed against Gnostics and/or Marcionites then a date after 100 CE for the Odes would follow.
I should find that passage in Philo where Philo is polemic with contemporary sectarians (not Romans or gentiles) who seem to despise the god of the Jews...
https://books.google.it/books?id=liZLAw ... cs&f=false
This may possibly be relevant posterity of cain
(52) Since, therefore, every city consists of houses and inhabitants, and laws, the houses, in Cain's case, are the reasons which he alleges to prove his point; by which, as from a wall, he fights against the persuasive attacks of his enemies; inventing fabulous devices against the truth. The inhabitants are the companions of impiety, ungodliness, self-love, haughtiness, falsehood, vain opinions; the men wise in their own conceit, the men who know not wisdom as relating to truth, the men who are full of ignorance, and stupidity, and folly; and all the other similar and kindred evils. The laws are, lawlessness, injustice, inequality, intemperance, boldness, folly, insolence, immoderate indulgence in pleasure, and innumerable appetites in despite of nature. (53) Now of such a city as this, every impious man is found to be a builder in his own miserable soul, until God deliberately causes complete and great confusion to their sophistical Arts.
Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

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I can buy the ebook on Google for about fifty bucks or I can download the ebook for free on archive.org. --- decisions decisions....

Thanks for the links, Giuseppe.
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by davidmartin »

ML i will look forward to James Audlin's new book wonder what's in it?

Is this of interest regarding marriage themes relating to Jesus, from Ireneaus
All from the same section just cutting out some cruft
However, it was not by means of visions alone which were seen, and words which were proclaimed, but also in actual works, that He was beheld by the prophets, in order that through them He might prefigure and show forth future events beforehand. For this reason did Hosea the prophet take “a wife of whoredoms,” prophesying by means of the action ... (Jesus performs like acts)
... And for this reason, Paul declares that the “unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband.” ...
... That which had been done typically through his actions by the prophet, the apostle proves to have been done truly by Christ in the Church...
... for this reason, by means of the marriage of Moses, was shown forth the marriage of the Word...
... Thus also did Rahab the harlot, while condemning herself, inasmuch as she was a Gentile, guilty of all sins, nevertheless receive the three spies, who were spying out all the land, and hid them at her home; [which three were] doubtless [a type of] the Father and the Son, together with the Holy Spirit. And when the entire city in which she lived fell to ruins at the sounding of the seven trumpets, Rahab the harlot was preserved, when all was over, together with all her house, through faith of the scarlet sign; as the Lord also declared to those who did not receive His advent,—the Pharisees, no doubt, nullify the sign of the scarlet thread, which meant the passover, and the redemption and exodus of the people from Egypt,—when He said, “The publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of heaven before you.”
It's really hard not to read into this that he's addressing Magdalene here (the one the father's 'forget' to mention, the great 'anathema' to the apostolic men, of the G. Phillip?)
Guilty of all sins - in Mark possessed of 7, all, demons
Saved because she proclaimed his passover, resurrection as per the gospels?
Could he be restating some earlier story or account that his readers would know what he was referring to?
He had the perfect chance to mention Magdalene here and he didn't so I think in roundabout way he actually does
If he was teaching this interpretation what were others teaching? Is it the worst kept secret ever
Maybe the story of the wife that Marcus the magician seduced was a type of this same story
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Re: John the Baptist is what does the difference in deciding on priority between Mark and *Ev

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:53 am ML i will look forward to James Audlin's new book wonder what's in it?

Is this of interest regarding marriage themes relating to Jesus, from Ireneaus
All from the same section just cutting out some cruft
However, it was not by means of visions alone which were seen, and words which were proclaimed, but also in actual works, that He was beheld by the prophets, in order that through them He might prefigure and show forth future events beforehand. For this reason did Hosea the prophet take “a wife of whoredoms,” prophesying by means of the action ... (Jesus performs like acts)
... And for this reason, Paul declares that the “unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband.” ...
... That which had been done typically through his actions by the prophet, the apostle proves to have been done truly by Christ in the Church...
... for this reason, by means of the marriage of Moses, was shown forth the marriage of the Word...
... Thus also did Rahab the harlot, while condemning herself, inasmuch as she was a Gentile, guilty of all sins, nevertheless receive the three spies, who were spying out all the land, and hid them at her home; [which three were] doubtless [a type of] the Father and the Son, together with the Holy Spirit. And when the entire city in which she lived fell to ruins at the sounding of the seven trumpets, Rahab the harlot was preserved, when all was over, together with all her house, through faith of the scarlet sign; as the Lord also declared to those who did not receive His advent,—the Pharisees, no doubt, nullify the sign of the scarlet thread, which meant the passover, and the redemption and exodus of the people from Egypt,—when He said, “The publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of heaven before you.”
It's really hard not to read into this that he's addressing Magdalene here (the one the father's 'forget' to mention, the great 'anathema' to the apostolic men, of the G. Phillip?)
Guilty of all sins - in Mark possessed of 7, all, demons
Saved because she proclaimed his passover, resurrection as per the gospels?
Could he be restating some earlier story or account that his readers would know what he was referring to?
He had the perfect chance to mention Magdalene here and he didn't so I think in roundabout way he actually does
If he was teaching this interpretation what were others teaching? Is it the worst kept secret ever
Maybe the story of the wife that Marcus the magician seduced was a type of this same story
Itching to get into the original text here, which section is this?
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