The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

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lclapshaw
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The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by lclapshaw »

Going through the Greek works of both Philo and Josephus I have encountered an oddity. When Philo talks about God he usually uses the title Kurious and when talking about human masters/rulers he uses despotes, in Josephus this is exactly the reverse with kurios being used for human rulers and Despotes reserved for God.

Only twice does Josephus use Kurios in connection with God, both times in Antiquities, once in book 13 3:1:68
καὶ γὰρ Ἡσαίας ὁ προφήτης τοῦτο προεῖπεν:
ἔσται θυσιαστήριον ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ κυρίῳ τῷ θεῷ: καὶ πολλὰ δὲ προεφήτευσεν ἄλλα τοιαῦτα διὰ τὸν τόπον.”
And then in book 20 4:2:90
“εἰ μὴ μάτην, ὦ δέσποτα κύριε, τῆς σῆς ἐγενόμην χρηστότητος, τῶν πάντων δὲ
δικαίως μόνον καὶ πρῶτον ἥγημαι κύριον, ἐλθὲ σύμμαχος οὐχ ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ μόνον ἀμυνούμενος τοὺς
πολεμίους, ἀλλ' ὅτι καὶ τῆς σῆς δυνάμεως
Here are my sources if anyone is interested
Antiquities of the Jews in Greek.pdf
(3.02 MiB) Downloaded 12 times
The Judean War.pdf
(1.28 MiB) Downloaded 11 times
Against Apion.pdf
(312.48 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
lclapshaw
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Re: The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by lclapshaw »

Two more sources
Life.pdf
(221.49 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
Philo Judaeus in Greek.pdf
(2.03 MiB) Downloaded 10 times
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mlinssen
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Re: The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by mlinssen »

lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:49 am Two more sources

Life.pdf

Philo Judaeus in Greek.pdf
That is really very interesting Lane - really really.
Where does despotes occur in the NT? Too lazy myself at this time of night
lclapshaw
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Re: The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by lclapshaw »

mlinssen wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:55 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:49 am Two more sources

Life.pdf

Philo Judaeus in Greek.pdf
That is really very interesting Lane - really really.
Where does despotes occur in the NT? Too lazy myself at this time of night
Good question. I'll check. :cheers:
lclapshaw
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am

Re: The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by lclapshaw »

lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:00 pm
mlinssen wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:55 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:49 am Two more sources

Life.pdf

Philo Judaeus in Greek.pdf
That is really very interesting Lane - really really.
Where does despotes occur in the NT? Too lazy myself at this time of night
Good question. I'll check. :cheers:
Revelation 6:10 πότε ὁ δεσπότης ὁ ἅγιος

2 Peter 2:1 ἀγοράσαντα αὐτοὺς δεσπότην ἀρνούμενοι

Jude 1:4 τὸν μόνον δεσπότην καὶ κύριον

2 Timothy 2:21 εὔχρηστον τῷ δεσπότῃ εἰς πᾶν

1 Timothy 6:1 τοὺς ἰδίους δεσπότας πάσης τιμῆς

1 Timothy 6:2 πιστοὺς ἔχοντες δεσπότας μὴ καταφρονείτωσαν

Titus 2:9 δούλους ἰδίοις δεσπόταις ὑποτάσσεσθαι ἐν

1 Peter 2:18 φόβῳ τοῖς δεσπόταις οὐ μόνον

Luke 2:29 δοῦλόν σου δέσποτα κατὰ τὸ

Acts 4:24 καὶ εἶπαν Δέσποτα σὺ ὁ

Interesting, most of these are, with the exception of Luke and Acts, works that were not accepted at one time or another by early XCians. At any rate, they mostly are thought to post date Luke/Acts.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by MrMacSon »

lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:47 am
When Philo talks about God he usually uses the title Kurious and when talking about human masters/rulers he uses despotes [ δεσπότα / δεσπότης / δεσπότην / etc ]

In Josephus this is exactly the reverse with Kurios [Lord] being used for human rulers and Despotes reserved for God

Only twice does Josephus use Kurios in connection with God, both times in Antiquities ...

This is fascinating ...

lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:26 pm Interesting, most of these^ are, with the exception of Luke and Acts, works that were not accepted at one time or another by early XCians
I'd be careful here as 'early XCians' implies the standard scheme of dating the NT texts and the supposed lateness of the 'pastoral' and catholic epistles. Revelation and even Jude may be earlier wrt to the others ...
lclapshaw
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Re: The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by lclapshaw »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:09 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:47 am
When Philo talks about God he usually uses the title Kurious and when talking about human masters/rulers he uses despotes [ δεσπότα / δεσπότης / δεσπότην / etc ]

In Josephus this is exactly the reverse with Kurios [Lord] being used for human rulers and Despotes reserved for God

Only twice does Josephus use Kurios in connection with God, both times in Antiquities ...

This is fascinating ...

lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:26 pm Interesting, most of these^ are, with the exception of Luke and Acts, works that were not accepted at one time or another by early XCians
I'd be careful here as 'early XCians' implies the standard scheme of dating the NT texts and the supposed lateness of the 'pastoral' and catholic epistles. Revelation and even Jude may be earlier wrt to the others ...
Point taken, but it does seem that the works were suspect and not universally accepted. Not trying to make a big case of it, just noting it.
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mlinssen
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Re: The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by mlinssen »

lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:26 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:00 pm
mlinssen wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:55 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:49 am Two more sources

Life.pdf

Philo Judaeus in Greek.pdf
That is really very interesting Lane - really really.
Where does despotes occur in the NT? Too lazy myself at this time of night
Good question. I'll check. :cheers:
Revelation 6:10 πότε ὁ δεσπότης ὁ ἅγιος

2 Peter 2:1 ἀγοράσαντα αὐτοὺς δεσπότην ἀρνούμενοι

Jude 1:4 τὸν μόνον δεσπότην καὶ κύριον

2 Timothy 2:21 εὔχρηστον τῷ δεσπότῃ εἰς πᾶν

1 Timothy 6:1 τοὺς ἰδίους δεσπότας πάσης τιμῆς

1 Timothy 6:2 πιστοὺς ἔχοντες δεσπότας μὴ καταφρονείτωσαν

Titus 2:9 δούλους ἰδίοις δεσπόταις ὑποτάσσεσθαι ἐν

1 Peter 2:18 φόβῳ τοῖς δεσπόταις οὐ μόνον

Luke 2:29 δοῦλόν σου δέσποτα κατὰ τὸ

Acts 4:24 καὶ εἶπαν Δέσποτα σὺ ὁ

Interesting, most of these are, with the exception of Luke and Acts, works that were not accepted at one time or another by early XCians. At any rate, they mostly are thought to post date Luke/Acts.
Picking Luke here. 2:26 addresses Jesus as Kurios, so the Despote is Gawd indeed. This must be Matthew's hand or at least this isn't in *Ev

Oddly, Luke uses tons of "in peace" but always with accusative, not dative - save for his ludicrous mash up of the strong man in 8:28

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/ ... rimary_0_1

Dunno, just a shot. TBC
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Re: The Curious Reversal of Kurios and Despotes With Philo and Josephus

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

lclapshaw wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:26 pm Good question. I'll check. :cheers:
Luke 2:29 δοῦλόν σου δέσποτα κατὰ τὸ
Sometimes Luke had brilliant ideas: calling the little baby a despot :D :lol: :thumbup:
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