'When Did Jesus Live?'

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 9:42 pm

9,9 But then, after the census, everyone went back to wherever they lived and room was made in Bethlehem. (10) Now when < the > first year was over and the second year had passed, Christ’s parents came from Nazareth to Bethlehem as though to the original gathering—as a sort of memorial because of what had happened there. (11) Thus the arrival of the magi occurred on this occasion, and probably not during Mary’s and Joseph’s visit at the time of the census which Luke mentions. For the magi did not find Mary in the cavern where she gave birth but, as the Gospel says, the star led them to the place where the young child was. (12) And they entered the house and found the baby with Mary—no longer in a manger, no longer in a cave, but in a house—showing the exact truth and the two-year interval, that is, from Christ’s birth until the arrival of the magi.

:lol: That's funny. Classic apologetics to explain discrepancies: they went to Bethlehem twice. :cheers:
andrewcriddle
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by andrewcriddle »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 8:26 pm The blog post of A. Jordan notes

The Talmud also places Jesus’ life under Alexander Jannaeus (Sotah 47a; Sanhedrin 107b), making it likely that the Rabbis knew of [a] Judeo-Christian group that held to this chronology. This point is most often used to discredit the Talmud’s account of Jesus as irrelevant. However, if the Talmud presents one of the views of a sect of Judeo-Christians, how can it be so easily discredited?

https://yaakovavraham.wordpress.com/202 ... esus-live/
These accounts in the Babylonian Talmud have parallels in the (earlier) Jerusalem Talmud in which Jesus is not mentioned. If as seems likely the references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud are secondary here then they would be of no historical value.

Ben Smith lists the parallel passages.

Andrew Criddle
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maryhelena
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by maryhelena »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:06 pm More generally, what are the theories about when Jesus lived and/or died, and who (if anyone) was responsible for his death? (For the sake of the exercise, I mean a life and death on earth)

GA Wells has Paul's Jesus dying in the remote past, though not identifying who was responsible IIRC.

Maryhelena has a date around 37BCE, when Antigonus II Mattathias was bound to a cross and scourged by Mark Anthony.
I don't hold the position that Antigonus II Mattathias was the gospel Jesus. My position is that this historical figure is the historical basis upon which the gospel writers drew for their Jesus crucifixion story i.e. a King of the Jews executed via a Roman agent. (gospel Jesus being a composite literary figure)
gryan
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by gryan »

RE: Hymns of Petra, Arabia

22,11 
This is also done in the same way in the city of Petra, in the temple of the idol there. (Petra is the capital city of Arabia, the scriptural Edom.) They praise the virgin with hymns in the Arab language calling her, in Arabic, Chaamu—that is, Core, or virgin. And the child who is born of her they call Dusares, that is, “the Lord’s only-begotten.” And this is also done that night in the city of Elusa, as it is there in Petra, and in Alexandria.
viewtopic.php?p=137256#p137256

-------------

What was being said? Is it that there was a pagan Arabian hymn foreshadowing the virgin birth of "the Lord's only-begotten"?
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Giuseppe
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by Giuseppe »

to be honest, I should say that it is imperfect to say:

"the Mythicist Alvar Ellegard, or André Ragot, or Etienne Weill-Raynal, thought that the Gospel Jesus was the Teacher of Righteousness"

...since a better definition for them all is well resumed so by André Ragot:

Le Jésus mystérieux et complexe des Evangiles, «historiquement inintelligible», serait non pas le Maître de Justice des Esséniens, mais une reprise mystique, ou même hallucinée, de la figure de ce Messie, Prophète et Réformateur de l'Essenisme.

(Aux sources du christianisme, p. 2)

The mysterious and complex Jesus of the Gospels, "historically unintelligible", would not be the Teacher of Justice of the Essenes, but a mystical, or even hallucinated, reprise of the figure of this Messiah, Prophet and Reformer of Essenism.

Hence one can't escape that reality: hallucinations at the Origins of Christianity.
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John T
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by John T »

Based upon the Essene calendar: The historical Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate on Wednesday, April 6th (Abib 15) 30 C.E.

Give or take a couple of years but definitely on a Wednesday during Passover.
lclapshaw
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by lclapshaw »

maryhelena wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:05 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:06 pm More generally, what are the theories about when Jesus lived and/or died, and who (if anyone) was responsible for his death? (For the sake of the exercise, I mean a life and death on earth)

GA Wells has Paul's Jesus dying in the remote past, though not identifying who was responsible IIRC.

Maryhelena has a date around 37BCE, when Antigonus II Mattathias was bound to a cross and scourged by Mark Anthony.
I don't hold the position that Antigonus II Mattathias was the gospel Jesus. My position is that this historical figure is the historical basis upon which the gospel writers drew for their Jesus crucifixion story i.e. a King of the Jews executed via a Roman agent. (gospel Jesus being a composite literary figure)
:cheers:
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maryhelena
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by maryhelena »

lclapshaw wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:42 pm
maryhelena wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:05 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:06 pm More generally, what are the theories about when Jesus lived and/or died, and who (if anyone) was responsible for his death? (For the sake of the exercise, I mean a life and death on earth)

GA Wells has Paul's Jesus dying in the remote past, though not identifying who was responsible IIRC.

Maryhelena has a date around 37BCE, when Antigonus II Mattathias was bound to a cross and scourged by Mark Anthony.
I don't hold the position that Antigonus II Mattathias was the gospel Jesus. My position is that this historical figure is the historical basis upon which the gospel writers drew for their Jesus crucifixion story i.e. a King of the Jews executed via a Roman agent. (gospel Jesus being a composite literary figure)
:cheers:
:)

When did Jesus live ? Its really a nonsense question is it not? Historical evidence that Jesus existed needs to be provided (Jesus understood as some version or variation of the gospel Jesus) then, and only then, can one attempt to investigate a time frame for his life. Methinks Jesus historicists are living in a bubble of their own illusions. Holding on to the historical Jesus illusion stifles research into what became early christianity.

Letting go of a historical Jesus frees one to consider all relevant Jesus stories - including the Toledot Yeshu and Alexander Jannaeus story. A composite Jesus figure, a symbolic Jesus, allows input from various sources. Various sources that indicate that the gospel Jesus story was never static, that it was a moving story. As time moves along, as history happens, the Jesus story developed.

I've proposed that the gospel crucifixion element of the Jesus story is a reference, a reflection, of the Roman execution of the last king and high priest of the Jews. Antigonus. It has been argued that Antigonus was simply beheaded and that Cassius Dio is wrong about him being hung up on a stake/cross/pole. Josephus has a story about a man taken down alive from a cross. Perhaps Antigonus was taken down alive and then beheaded. That Cassius Dio mentions Antigonus being hung up suggests (if he had no historical source) that he make a connection to the gospel crucifixion story about a king of the Jews being crucified involving a Roman agent.

Does this identification of a potential source for the gospel crucifixion story further research ? It can do - it can lead right back to the Toledot Yeshu and Alexander Jannaeus story: Antigonus was executed/crucified in 37 b.c. Josephus gives no age for Antigonus at his death. Alexander Jannaeus death, re Wikipedia, is around 76 b.c. One version of the Toledot Yeshu gives Yeshu a birth date of around 90 b.c. Working from either dating - Antigonus most probably was born in the time of his grandfather, Alexander Jannaeus.

The death of Yeshu is given as being in the time of Queen Helene. That was not the name of the wife of Alexander Jannaeus. A number of names have been suggested for Queen Helene. My own suggestion is that it's a reference to Queen Cleopatra Selene II (40 - 5 b.c. - year of her death is debated....) The connection of Cleopatra Selene to the Roman execution of Antigonus - she was the daughter of his executioner, Marc Antony. (and Cleopatra)

I'll repeat - gospel Jesus is a composite figure, a symbol that reflects Hasmonean history. Within that composite gospel Jesus figure, the Roman crucifixion/execution of the last Hasmonean King and High Priest is being reflected. Yeshu of the Toledot Yeshu is fiction, gospel Jesus is fiction. They are literary creations designed to reflect Hasmonean history. They are part of the political allegorical nature of the gospel story. The linkage is there - the life story of Antigonus can run back to the time of Alexander Jannaeus. 70 years after the Roman execution/crucifixion of Antigonus in 37 b.c. the gospel story places it's Jesus story in the time of Pilate.

Why bother with Hasmonean history if all the NT is about is Paul's spiritual/cosmic crucifixion philosophy ? Because history matters. It matters if we want to understand what led to the religious/cultural world we inherited and continue to advocate.
lclapshaw
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by lclapshaw »

maryhelena wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm
lclapshaw wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:42 pm
maryhelena wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:05 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:06 pm More generally, what are the theories about when Jesus lived and/or died, and who (if anyone) was responsible for his death? (For the sake of the exercise, I mean a life and death on earth)

GA Wells has Paul's Jesus dying in the remote past, though not identifying who was responsible IIRC.

Maryhelena has a date around 37BCE, when Antigonus II Mattathias was bound to a cross and scourged by Mark Anthony.
I don't hold the position that Antigonus II Mattathias was the gospel Jesus. My position is that this historical figure is the historical basis upon which the gospel writers drew for their Jesus crucifixion story i.e. a King of the Jews executed via a Roman agent. (gospel Jesus being a composite literary figure)
:cheers:
:)

When did Jesus live ? Its really a nonsense question is it not? Historical evidence that Jesus existed needs to be provided (Jesus understood as some version or variation of the gospel Jesus) then, and only then, can one attempt to investigate a time frame for his life. Methinks Jesus historicists are living in a bubble of their own illusions. Holding on to the historical Jesus illusion stifles research into what became early christianity.

Letting go of a historical Jesus frees one to consider all relevant Jesus stories - including the Toledot Yeshu and Alexander Jannaeus story. A composite Jesus figure, a symbolic Jesus, allows input from various sources. Various sources that indicate that the gospel Jesus story was never static, that it was a moving story. As time moves along, as history happens, the Jesus story developed.

I've proposed that the gospel crucifixion element of the Jesus story is a reference, a reflection, of the Roman execution of the last king and high priest of the Jews. Antigonus. It has been argued that Antigonus was simply beheaded and that Cassius Dio is wrong about him being hung up on a stake/cross/pole. Josephus has a story about a man taken down alive from a cross. Perhaps Antigonus was taken down alive and then beheaded. That Cassius Dio mentions Antigonus being hung up suggests (if he had no historical source) that he make a connection to the gospel crucifixion story about a king of the Jews being crucified involving a Roman agent.

Does this identification of a potential source for the gospel crucifixion story further research ? It can do - it can lead right back to the Toledot Yeshu and Alexander Jannaeus story: Antigonus was executed/crucified in 37 b.c. Josephus gives no age for Antigonus at his death. Alexander Jannaeus death, re Wikipedia, is around 76 b.c. One version of the Toledot Yeshu gives Yeshu a birth date of around 90 b.c. Working from either dating - Antigonus most probably was born in the time of his grandfather, Alexander Jannaeus.

The death of Yeshu is given as being in the time of Queen Helene. That was not the name of the wife of Alexander Jannaeus. A number of names have been suggested for Queen Helene. My own suggestion is that it's a reference to Queen Cleopatra Selene II (40 - 5 b.c. - year of her death is debated....) The connection of Cleopatra Selene to the Roman execution of Antigonus - she was the daughter of his executioner, Marc Antony. (and Cleopatra)

I'll repeat - gospel Jesus is a composite figure, a symbol that reflects Hasmonean history. Within that composite gospel Jesus figure, the Roman crucifixion/execution of the last Hasmonean King and High Priest is being reflected. Yeshu of the Toledot Yeshu is fiction, gospel Jesus is fiction. They are literary creations designed to reflect Hasmonean history. They are part of the political allegorical nature of the gospel story. The linkage is there - the life story of Antigonus can run back to the time of Alexander Jannaeus. 70 years after the Roman execution/crucifixion of Antigonus in 37 b.c. the gospel story places it's Jesus story in the time of Pilate.

Why bother with Hasmonean history if all the NT is about is Paul's spiritual/cosmic crucifixion philosophy ? Because history matters. It matters if we want to understand what led to the religious/cultural world we inherited and continue to advocate.
Amen sister! :cheers: I agree with everything you have written above. And even if Paul had a spiritual entity in mind we still have the obvious fictional character of the Gospel stories, the authors of which, were probably trying to figure out what Paul was on about and using Josephus as a guide created what they thought sounded good.
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John T
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Re: 'When Did Jesus Live?'

Post by John T »

maryhelena wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 2:49 pm
When did Jesus live ? Its really a nonsense question is it not? Historical evidence that Jesus existed needs to be provided (Jesus understood as some version or variation of the gospel Jesus) then, and only then, can one attempt to investigate a time frame for his life. Methinks Jesus historicists are living in a bubble of their own illusions. Holding on to the historical Jesus illusion stifles research into what became early christianity.
Translation: Fellow atheists, ah um, I mean mythicists, don't you understand? if you say Jesus lived, our whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Get with the program! Now repeat after me; "Those who believe Jesus was real are delusional." Got it? Good!
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