lclapshaw wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 12:42 pm
maryhelena wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 11:05 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 7:06 pm
More generally, what are the theories about when Jesus lived and/or died, and who (if anyone) was responsible for his death? (For the sake of the exercise, I mean a life and death on earth)
GA Wells has Paul's Jesus dying in the remote past, though not identifying who was responsible IIRC.
Maryhelena has a date around 37BCE, when Antigonus II Mattathias was bound to a cross and scourged by Mark Anthony.
I don't hold the position that Antigonus II Mattathias was the gospel Jesus. My position is that this historical figure is the historical basis upon which the gospel writers drew for their Jesus crucifixion story i.e. a King of the Jews executed via a Roman agent. (gospel Jesus being a composite literary figure)
When did Jesus live ? Its really a nonsense question is it not? Historical evidence that Jesus existed needs to be provided (Jesus understood as some version or variation of the gospel Jesus) then, and only then, can one attempt to investigate a time frame for his life. Methinks Jesus historicists are living in a bubble of their own illusions. Holding on to the historical Jesus illusion stifles research into what became early christianity.
Letting go of a historical Jesus frees one to consider all relevant Jesus stories - including the Toledot Yeshu and Alexander Jannaeus story. A composite Jesus figure, a symbolic Jesus, allows input from various sources. Various sources that indicate that the gospel Jesus story was never static, that it was a moving story. As time moves along, as history happens, the Jesus story developed.
I've proposed that the gospel crucifixion element of the Jesus story is a reference, a reflection, of the Roman execution of the last king and high priest of the Jews. Antigonus. It has been argued that Antigonus was simply beheaded and that Cassius Dio is wrong about him being hung up on a stake/cross/pole. Josephus has a story about a man taken down alive from a cross. Perhaps Antigonus was taken down alive and then beheaded. That Cassius Dio mentions Antigonus being hung up suggests (if he had no historical source) that he make a connection to the gospel crucifixion story about a king of the Jews being crucified involving a Roman agent.
Does this identification of a potential source for the gospel crucifixion story further research ? It can do - it can lead right back to the Toledot Yeshu and Alexander Jannaeus story: Antigonus was executed/crucified in 37 b.c. Josephus gives no age for Antigonus at his death. Alexander Jannaeus death, re Wikipedia, is around 76 b.c. One version of the Toledot Yeshu gives Yeshu a birth date of around 90 b.c. Working from either dating - Antigonus most probably was born in the time of his grandfather, Alexander Jannaeus.
The death of Yeshu is given as being in the time of Queen Helene. That was not the name of the wife of Alexander Jannaeus. A number of names have been suggested for Queen Helene. My own suggestion is that it's a reference to Queen Cleopatra Selene II (40 - 5 b.c. - year of her death is debated....) The connection of Cleopatra Selene to the Roman execution of Antigonus - she was the daughter of his executioner, Marc Antony. (and Cleopatra)
I'll repeat - gospel Jesus is a composite figure, a symbol that reflects Hasmonean history. Within that composite gospel Jesus figure, the Roman crucifixion/execution of the last Hasmonean King and High Priest is being reflected. Yeshu of the Toledot Yeshu is fiction, gospel Jesus is fiction. They are literary creations designed to reflect Hasmonean history. They are part of the political allegorical nature of the gospel story. The linkage is there - the life story of Antigonus can run back to the time of Alexander Jannaeus. 70 years after the Roman execution/crucifixion of Antigonus in 37 b.c. the gospel story places it's Jesus story in the time of Pilate.
Why bother with Hasmonean history if all the NT is about is Paul's spiritual/cosmic crucifixion philosophy ? Because history matters. It matters if we want to understand what led to the religious/cultural world we inherited and continue to advocate.