The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
ABuddhist
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by ABuddhist »

Sinouhe wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:00 pm I don't see what this has to do with Richard Carrier. You're definitely making a lot of irrelevant points.
John T, i Assume, was addressing my claim, citing Dr. Carrier and others, that it is not unreasonable to assume that Michael and Jesus were the same entity in early Christianity. Of course, rather than providing detailed reasoning, John T simply seized upon the association with Dr. Carrier and insinuated that people who think that Michael and Jesus were the same entity in early Christianity are trying to find evidence (presumably in support of some agenda).

Such is why, in these religious history discussions, I make clear my religious affiliations. I do not like to be accused of being an anti-religious fanatic. And of course, knowing what religion defenders of the mainstream about Christian origins (and even conservativer positions) belong to is very useful. :D
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John T
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by John T »

Sinouhe wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:00 pm Schaffer's view is shared by Michael O Wise, Martin Abegg, or Morton Smith.
And Esther Eschel also admits that the idea is plausible.
I don't see what this has to do with Richard Carrier. You're definitely making a lot of irrelevant points.

I will stop here with you.
And you should stop.
The supreme experts Maurice Baillet and Garcia Martinez got it right.

The wanna be experts have to attack the vanguards if they are to replace them or better yet sell books.

Here are just a few of the problematic claims to justify that the protagonist in 4Q491 is not the archangel Michael.

Joseph Angel's view is that the author of (4Q491 b) claims that as a human he is able to travel from earth to heaven and back again at will. No such claim exists in the scrolls he referenced. His conjecture is based on pure fantasy.

Schaffer's view is untenable for much the same reasons.

Michael O Wise translations of the DSS are so bad that I no longer have it in my library for reasons I previously stated.

Abegg has retracted his statement and agrees with Garcia Martinez that 4Q491c & 4Q491b should not be separated.

Morton Smith, well how do I put it delicately, is suspected of forgery e.g. "The Secret Gospel of Mark".

Esther Eschel, try as I might, I can't find her justification for changing the title of 4Q491, fr. 11 from The Song of Michael and the Just to Glorification Hymn A. I hope it is not as simple as, since she translated Hymn B that gives her the right to re-title Baillet's title.

While I'm at it, not even Dr. Carrier is willing to dive in head first in the mud puddle. That should give you caution.


Now that I gave my honest opinion based on the Dead Sea Scrolls, here comes the ad hominem attacks since there is no rebuttal to the problems I pointed out, at least not any that can be fact checked. :tomato:
ABuddhist
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by ABuddhist »

John T wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:25 pm
Sinouhe wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:00 pm Schaffer's view is shared by Michael O Wise, Martin Abegg, or Morton Smith.
And Esther Eschel also admits that the idea is plausible.
I don't see what this has to do with Richard Carrier. You're definitely making a lot of irrelevant points.

I will stop here with you.
And you should stop.
The supreme experts Maurice Baillet and Garcia Martinez got it right.

The wanna be experts have to attack the vanguards if they are to replace them or better yet sell books.

Here are just a few of the problematic claims to justify that the protagonist in 4Q491 is not the archangel Michael.

Joseph Angel's view is that the author of (4Q491 b) claims that as a human he is able to travel from earth to heaven and back again at will. No such claim exists in the scrolls he referenced. His conjecture is based on pure fantasy.

Schaffer's view is untenable for much the same reasons.

Michael O Wise translations of the DSS are so bad that I no longer have it in my library for reasons I previously stated.

Abegg has retracted his statement and agrees with Garcia Martinez that 4Q491c & 4Q491b should not be separated.

[...]

Esther Eschel, try as I might, I can't find her justification for changing the title of 4Q491, fr. 11 from The Song of Michael and the Just to Glorification Hymn A. I hope it is not as simple as, since she translated Hymn B that gives her the right to re-title Baillet's title.

[...]

Now that I gave my honest opinion based on the Dead Sea Scrolls, here comes the ad hominem attacks since there is no rebuttal to the problems I pointed out, at least not any that can be fact checked. :tomato:
I, for one, am very impressed with your willingness to cite authorities - although I wish that you would cite the texts in which the scholars whom you refer to make their opinions which you cite. Such would allow your claims to be fact-checked.
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John T
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by John T »

Sinouhe wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:00 pm
The servant in Isaiah is the eschatological Messiah in the DSS :

It would be difficult to explain why some eschatological characters are identified with the servant, a messianic claim for the sect, if they don’t have messianic vocation, as if being the servant of Isaiah was an interchangeable label for anyone. Still, there can be a former servant and a future servant of Isaiah. But several servants as if it was a common title? No.

When Jesus is identified with the servant of Isaiah or with the suffering servant of Isaiah, it is also the same character. Not several and multiple servants. And there is obviously the image of the Messiah associated with this identification in the NT.

I will stop here with you.
The Commentaries on Isaiah (4Q161-5, 3Q4) are not inconsistent with Isaiah but troubling for those who believe Jesus was actually God in the flesh. There is actually two (perhaps three) messiahs that will be given control over the nation of Israel at the end of days. However, they are exalted humans, (sons of light) not angels. Jesus was accused of claiming he will be given the messianic title of King of the Jews as he is a decent of King David.

"Christians and Jews have come to focus on the appearance of a single Messiah. Such was decidedly not the case in the time of Jesus as we have already seen in the Dead Sea Scrolls. In text after text we read about not one but two Messiahs who are to usher in the Kingdom of God. One is to be a kingly figure of the royal line of David, but at his side will be a priestly figure, also a Messiah, of the lineage of Aaron from the tribe of Levi." The Jesus Dynasty by James D. Tabor. pg. 144-145

The Branch of David is a decedent of King David.

I avoid these discussions in open forum because they are considered heresy worthy of public scorn.

With that, John T is done with this thread.
ABuddhist
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by ABuddhist »

John T wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:57 pm I avoid these discussions in open forum because they are considered heresy worthy of public scorn.
Maybe you should finds other fora in which your views will be tolerated more by other people.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

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John T wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:25 pm
The supreme experts Maurice Baillet and Garcia Martinez got it right.
Remember, 2 days ago you said me Geza Vermes was the best. I show you that he think like Esther Eshel and now you already move desperately to another scholars ...
The wanna be experts have to attack the vanguards if they are to replace them or better yet sell books.
Peter Schafer is top 5 scholar concerning second temple judaism and christianity. Your statement is pathetic.
Joseph Angel's view is that the author of (4Q491 b) claims that as a human he is able to travel from earth to heaven and back again at will. No such claim exists in the scrolls he referenced. His conjecture is based on pure fantasy.
And yet we have found Enoch's manuscripts in THE CAVE IV. The one where some manuscripts of the hymns of self glorification were found. And what did these Enoch scrolls contain ? His journey through heaven and space with the angels.
Pure fantasy ? You are apparently unfamiliar with second temple judaism and even your own religion.
Michael O Wise translations of the DSS are so bad that I no longer have it in my library for reasons I previously stated.
Translation : "Michael O Wise translations goes against my beliefs. I don't like it.
And don't forget that Michael O Wise didn't translate the DSS by himself. He was assisted by Cook and Abbeg.
Abegg has retracted his statement and agrees with Garcia Martinez that 4Q491c & 4Q491b should not be separated.
And Abegg thinks that it doesn't concern Michael :

  • Martin G Abegg - Who ascended to heaven ?
"Manuscript III of 4Q491, the misnamed "Song of Michael" show no contextual connection at all with 1QM".
Morton Smith, well how do I put it delicately, is suspected of forgery e.g. "The Secret Gospel of Mark".
Completely OFF TOPIC :shock:
Esther Eschel, try as I might, I can't find her justification for changing the title of 4Q491, fr. 11 from The Song of Michael and the Just to Glorification Hymn A. I hope it is not as simple as, since she translated Hymn B that gives her the right to re-title Baillet's title.
Oddly enough, she convinced the MAJORITY of scholars with his conclusion.
While I'm at it, not even Dr. Carrier is willing to dive in head first in the mud puddle. That should give you caution.
You seem to be obsessed with Carrier like all historicists :lol:
Now that I gave my honest opinion based on the Dead Sea Scrolls, here comes the ad hominem attacks since there is no rebuttal to the problems I pointed out, at least not any that can be fact checked. :tomato:

Let me doubt it. But I don't blame you.
You have an agenda and you seem very inexperienced with the DSS.
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John T
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by John T »

Sinouhe wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:00 pm
I will stop here with you.
Yet, you go on.
As I said, I'm done arguing with you on this thread.
Michael O Wise, "The First Messiah" has been thoroughly debunked.
If you want to take up a specific bone of contention, then by all means, start a new thread.

Maybe I will join you. :cheers:
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by Sinouhe »

John T wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:47 am
Sinouhe wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:00 pm
I will stop here with you.
Yet, you go on.
As I said, I'm done arguing with you on this thread.
Michael O Wise, "The First Messiah" has been thoroughly debunked.
If you want to take up a specific bone of contention, then by all means, start a new thread.

Maybe I will join you. :cheers:
You don't even have the basics to have a conversation about the DSS without going off topic in each of your messages.
No point.
Try on a less demanding forum, it will be less frustrating for you :thumbup:
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