The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:18 am Conclusion :

As we have just seen, during the first century before common era, we had a jewish sect awaiting their Messiah :
  • a celestial
  • and atoner
  • suffering servant
  • who will raises the dead
  • and heal the crippled, the lame and the blind.


And suddenly, few decades later pop up in Judea :
  • A Messiah
  • Suffering servant
  • atoner
  • celestial
  • who raises the dead
  • heal the crippled, the lame and the blind.


His name was Jesus.

And unfortunately, the first sect disappear from the map and a new sect pop up in the same time.
What a remarkable chain of coincidences isn’t it ? 😀
It's a conundrum.

We have the intertestamental and Qumran literature to document these interpretations within the Jewish networks.

Does not the next datable attestation to such ideas comes with the "Church Fathers" -- thinking of Aristides and Justin. Had the discussion about these figures been restricted to Jewish and proselyte circles until the Bar Kochba events obliged gentiles who had been close to the Jewish schools of thought felt obliged to distance themselves from their erstwhile Jewish dialogue partners? Marcion fits in here, too, of course.

The problem I have with the writings of Aristides, Justin, Paul (whose writings also remain undocumented until the second century) is that their Jesus is so unlike the Jesus of our canonical gospels. The Jesus of the Gospel of Mark does carry the doctrinal ideas of Paul's and Justin's Jesus, but the figure is crafted as a personification of the Jewish people, with a special bias on their suffering, death, and hoped for revival as a "new body". The events of 70 were bad enough, but I understand they were not so condign that they dashed all hopes for a rebuilding of the Temple; the priesthood was still intact. But 135 ended all of that and smashed diaspora links with Jerusalem entirely.

And if that Jewish-gospel of Mark was a direct rebuttal to Marcion, as Vinzent argues, one can trace a trajectory of this "Son of Man/Enochian/Jesus type figure" from

1. Pre-70 Jewish ideas
2. Post-70 shaping of the figure involving more direct inputs from the proselytes, and a greater openness among those Jewish exegetes to toy with new ideas of relationships with the gentiles
3. The total end of Jewish hopes and first signs of gentiles actively dissociating themselves from Jewish roots, some more than others;
4. Marcion takes that dissociation too far -- unmooring the new religion from its rationale in the ancient Scriptures -- and the reaction begins with the gospel of Mark.

Caveat: the above is an expression of entirely transient thoughts that I am in no position to seriously defend. What's the expression? Flying a kite?
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Sinouhe wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 12:34 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:45 pm If one ignores the tentative reconstructions (in square brackets), then in 4Q491 we have a being, who may be either human or angelic, who boasts of being seated on a heavenly throne and who has a glory superior to all the angels. In 4Q471 and parallels we have a human figure who has apparently suffered as God's righteous servant (accepting some probable but not certain textual restoration) and who has been given a status surpassing the angels.
Imo, the 2 texts are too close to be different .
Same context, same references, same order :

Capture d’écran 2022-05-07 à 10.36.33.png

Joseph L Angel - THE LITURGICAL-ESCHATOLOGICAL PRIEST OF THE SELF-GLORIFICATION HYMN
It will suffice to note that the thematic and linguistic affinities between 4Q491 11 I on the one hand, and the composite text constructed out of the three Hodayot witnesses on the other, have been enough to convince most, but not all, scholars that these manuscripts represent two recensions of the same work.
For the generally accepted view, see, e.g., J. Duhaime, The War Texts (Com- panion to the Qumran Scrolls 6; London: T. & T. Clark International, 2004), 35-40. To my knowledge, the dissenting position is expressed only by García Martínez, “Old Texts and Modern Mirages,” 105-25, esp. 114-18.



andrewcriddle wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:45 pm Problems arise when one regards the speaker of 4Q471, who is clearly a human figure (singular or collective) associated with the Qumran community, as the same person as the speaker of 4Q491 whom the original editor Baillet identified with the Archangel Michael.
Almost every scholars had followed Morton Smith and discredited the identification with Michael.
Most of them identify this mysterious entity with the teacher of righteousness or the eschatological priest.
The important recent study Meaning and Context in the Thanksgiving Hymns by Hasselbalch follows Martinez (and Baillet). See Chapter 6 Two Voices in Unison.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:43 am The important recent study Meaning and Context in the Thanksgiving Hymns by Hasselbalch follows Martinez (and Baillet).
better still .... for free: https://archive.org/details/meaningcontextin0000hass
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:49 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:43 am The important recent study Meaning and Context in the Thanksgiving Hymns by Hasselbalch follows Martinez (and Baillet).
better still .... for free: https://archive.org/details/meaningcontextin0000hass
Thanks Neil :cheers:
I will read the chapter about the Self glorification hymn.
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John T
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by John T »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:13 am
  • 4Q491/4Q471 - The Self Glorification Hymn (see Table 1)

Our hero is not just one angel among many angels, and it is not said that he will be transformed into an angel. Rather, he is and remains a human being who is elevated to the status of a god, and as such will return to earth".[/i]

Please clarify the purpose of the different colors (red and green) you use to highlight words.

As you know, 4Q491 is a patchwork, of bits and pieces from different scrolls/caves. In my opinion it refers to the angel Michael and not a earthling. Therefore, it can not be Jesus or the Teacher of Righteousness.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by Sinouhe »

John T wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:11 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:13 am
  • 4Q491/4Q471 - The Self Glorification Hymn (see Table 1)

Our hero is not just one angel among many angels, and it is not said that he will be transformed into an angel. Rather, he is and remains a human being who is elevated to the status of a god, and as such will return to earth".[/i]

Please clarify the purpose of the different colors (red and green) you use to highlight words.

As you know, 4Q491 is a patchwork, of bits and pieces from different scrolls/caves. In my opinion it refers to the angel Michael and not a earthling. Therefore, it can not be Jesus or the Teacher of Righteousness.
Jesus is supposed to be later than these texts so I agree with you. IBesides, I never said that it was Jesus.
For the Teacher of Righteousness, we can find some indications that the author of the text had the teacher of righteousness in mind when he wrote these verses. There are other indications that the readers of these hymns had the Teacher of Righteousness in mind or wanted to identify him with the character of these hymns.

Different studies go in this direction and estimate that the character of the Self-glorification Hymn is the teacher of Righteousness :
  • Martin G. Abegg JR "Who Ascend to Heaven ? 4Q491, 4Q427 and the Teacher of Righteousness"
  • Peter Schafer - Two Gods in Heaven
  • Michael O Wise "A STUDY OF 4Q491c, 4Q471b, 4Q427 7 AND 1QHA 25:35-26:10"
or raises the possibility that the teacher of righteousness community have identified him with this eschatological figure, who will be revealed at the end of days :
  • Esther Eshel - The identification of the speaker of the self-glorification Hymn
You just can't discard the possibility so easily.
Moreover, the identification with Michael is the least defended possibility among scholars and is quite widely rejected.
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John T
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by John T »

Sinouhe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:42 am
You just can't discard the possibility so easily.
Moreover, the identification with Michael is the least defended possibility among scholars and is quite widely rejected.
Yet, it is cataloged by Geza Vermes as: "The song of Michael and the Just"
Just so you know, I no longer have any translations by Michael O Wise or Abegg. I cleaned out my library last fall and I threw out their books because I deemed their translations as too unreliable.

Anyway, your in-depth opinion is certainty worthy of my time to reconsider.

Again, if you would be so kind as to explain why you highlight some words in red and others green.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by Sinouhe »

John T wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 3:56 am Yet, it is cataloged by Geza Vermes as: "The song of Michael and the Just"
Not exactly :
Capture d’écran 2022-05-15 à 14.02.40.png
Capture d’écran 2022-05-15 à 14.02.40.png (68.09 KiB) Viewed 108 times
Just so you know, I no longer have any translations by Michael O Wise or Abegg. I cleaned out my library last fall and I threw out their books because I deemed their translations as too unreliable.
Personally, i use Wise/Cook/Abegg, Vermes, Martinez and Dupont-Sommer. When i have a doubt, i check all the translations to decide what is the best translation.
Again, if you would be so kind as to explain why you highlight some words in red and others green.
No particular signification. Red or yellow are just to highlight the text.
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John T
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by John T »

Sinouhe wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:08 am
Not exactly :
Capture d’écran 2022-05-15 à 14.02.40.png
More precisely: There are two versions of the same poem and I have two different editions of: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English.

In the 1997 edition of: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English (4Q491, fr. 11) is found on page 185 and titled: The Song of Michael and the Just. with M. Baillet as the editor.
In the 2011 edition (4Q491, fr. 11) is found on page 342 and titled: Glorification Hymn A

I discount Eshel's change of title out of hand for the simple matter that high priests do not dwell in heaven but on earth. I welcome any excerpts you have from her that justifies the change of title.
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Re: The Messiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls - Two Suffering Servants in Judea ?

Post by andrewcriddle »

John T wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 5:06 am
Sinouhe wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:08 am
Not exactly :
Capture d’écran 2022-05-15 à 14.02.40.png
More precisely: There are two versions of the same poem and I have two different editions of: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English.

In the 1997 edition of: The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English (4Q491, fr. 11) is found on page 185 and titled: The Song of Michael and the Just. with M. Baillet as the editor.
In the 2011 edition (4Q491, fr. 11) is found on page 342 and titled: Glorification Hymn A

I discount Eshel's change of title out of hand for the simple matter that high priests do not dwell in heaven but on earth. I welcome any excerpts you have from her that justifies the change of title.
Sinouhe and I previously discussed this in this thread. The issue is that 4Q491, fr. 11 is similar but far from identical to another Hymn found in 4Q471 and other fragments (Normally called Glorification Hymn B). However, this hymn clearly has a human protagonist. If the protagonists of the 2 hymns are the same (as most scholars believe) then 4Q491, fr. 11 is about an exalted human. If the protagonists are different (as I have suggested) then 4Q491, fr. 11 is probably about an angelic figure.

Andrew Criddle
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