And I wonder what justification there is for assuming that early Christian philosophers were not also charismatics/ecstatics. True, they might have presented themselves as purely sober and logical philosophers, but such must be understood as part of their efforts to appeal to philosophically inclined non-Christians, who might have been repelled by ecstasy.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:34 pmI don't know that we have any evidence that the philosophical mind of the Greco-Roman era we are talking about were favourable towards those sorts of ecstatic practices. As far as I recall, they never make any appeal to such practices as signs of the spirit in their midst, and all their appeals are to reason. Justin's account of his conversion is an entirely "rational" one.ABuddhist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:03 pmWhy do you assume that the same religious impulse cannot be associated with both types of activity - even with the same person doing both types of deeds?neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:52 pm As for point 2, people like Aristides and Justin are writing as philosophers. Their beliefs come across as philosophically grounded and they are appealing to others with a similar respect for philosophical reasoning. I find it difficult to imagine that sort of Christianity arising from "charismatic and driven" preachers.
Xuanzang, for example, was learned in Buddhist philosophy/reasoning/debate, but also had a deep and abiding faith in Maitreya Buddha of the sort that we would associate with less sophisticated thinkers.
If the faith was spread only a few short years before Aristides and Justin I again find it quite difficult to imagine such calmly intellectual expositions appearing so soon and without a trace of reference to the ecstatic expressions of "the movement".
That is not to discount the charismatic types of practices from the earliest days. There surely were. Paul's letters speak of them -- even if they are second-century products they are early second century. And Tertullian fitted right in with them for a time.
Is it a mainstream view that the early Christian philosophers were not also charismatics/ecstatics?