Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

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Giuseppe
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Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

Post by Giuseppe »

Thanks to Neil for the info about Acta Archelai.

I have written in the comments:

Tunc vivens spiritus creavit mundum, et indutus alias tres virtutes, descendens eduxit principes et crucifixit eos in firmamento, quod est eius corpus sphera.

Τότε τò ζῶν πνεῦμα ἔκτισε τὸν κόσμον, καὶ αὐτò φορέσαν ἑτέρας τρεῖς δυνάμεις, κατελθòν ἁνήνεγκε τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ ἐσταύρωσεν ἐν τῷ στερεώματι, ὅ ἐστιν αὐτῶν σῶμα ἡ σφαῖρα.

Curiously, the English translation has not “crucified” but “settled”, despite of the fact that the original Greek is ἐσταύρωσεν :
Then the living Spirit created the world; and bearing in himself three other powers, he came down and brought off the princes, and settled them in the firmament, which is their body, (though it is called) the sphere.

The function of the crucifixion here is clearly “to fix” forever the archontes in the sky. As fixed stars. Hence: the crucifixion as symbol of the attachment to vile matter (cfr Philo, On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile 17.61, where he compares souls being attached to bodies to men being attached to crosses via crucifixion).

So I wonder if the same symbolism is in action behind the crucifixion of Jesus in Paul:

the demons think that Jesus deserves to be "fixed", as they are, in the lower heavens (=outer space), but they are wrong, for the reasons explained by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8.
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

Post by Giuseppe »

Curiously, also the three Pillars, the obtuse Peter in primis, think that Jesus, Moses and Elijah deserve respectively a tent,

one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah

...the tent being a symbol of Judaism (the tents built by the Jewish people in the Exodus) and by logical extension, from a marcionite POV, of the demiurgical "materialistic" religion,

...so de facto Peter is going "to fix"/crucify Jesus among the Law and the Prophets, "stellar" icons of archontic power, by building for him a 'tent'.

Robert M. Price in an intriguing application of Girard's theory about expiation on the Gospels, arrived to the conclusion that the same disciples are the true killers of Jesus.

So the possibility is concrete, that the Transfiguration was in the first gospel the original Celestial Crucifixion.
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John T
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Re: Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

Post by John T »

In the behalf of Philo.
:facepalm:
Secret Alias
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Re: Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

Post by Secret Alias »

Why is this "outer space" thing so important? The obsession for making Christianity look stupid is unprofessional. Like Tonya Harding using the pipe on Nancy Kerrigan. Still won't help you win a medal.
lclapshaw
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Re: Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

Post by lclapshaw »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:01 pm Why is this "outer space" thing so important? The obsession for making Christianity look stupid is unprofessional. Like Tonya Harding using the pipe on Nancy Kerrigan. Still won't help you win a medal.
I tend to agree. Modern XCianity is asinine, no need to beat a dead horse.
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MrMacSon
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Acta Archelai (Archelaus' Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarch Manes)

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:28 am
Thanks to Neil for the info about Acta Archelai.

I have written in the comments:

Tunc vivens spiritus creavit mundum, et indutus alias tres virtutes, descendens eduxit principes et crucifixit eos in firmamento, quod est eius corpus sphera.

Τότε τò ζῶν πνεῦμα ἔκτισε τὸν κόσμον, καὶ αὐτò φορέσαν ἑτέρας τρεῖς δυνάμεις, κατελθòν ἁνήνεγκε τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ ἐσταύρωσεν ἐν τῷ στερεώματι, ὅ ἐστιν αὐτῶν σῶμα ἡ σφαῖρα.

Curiously, the English translation has not “crucified” but “settled”, despite of the fact that the original Greek is ἐσταύρωσεν :

Then the living Spirit created the world; and bearing in himself three other powers, he came down and brought off the princes, and settled them in the firmament, which is their body, (though it is called) the sphere.

The function of the crucifixion here is clearly “to fix” forever the archontes in the sky. As fixed stars. Hence: the crucifixion as symbol of the attachment to vile matter (cfr Philo, On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile 17.61, where he compares souls being attached to bodies to men being attached to crosses via crucifixion).

The next webpage has


8. But when the living Father perceived that the soul was in tribulation in the body, being full of mercy and compassion, He sent His own beloved Son for the salvation of the soul ... And the Son came and transformed Himself into the likeness of man, and manifested Himself to men as a man, while yet He was not a man, and men supposed that He was begotten. Thus He came and prepared the work which was to effect the salvation of the souls ... And the greater luminary receives these souls, and purifies them with its rays, and then passes them over to the moon; and in this manner the moon’s disc, as it is designated by us, is filled up ... if the moon becomes full, it ferries its passengers across toward the east wind, and thereby effects its own waning ...

.. every living creature that moves, partakes of the substance of the good Father. And accordingly, when the moon delivers over its freight of souls to the æons of the Father, they abide there in that pillar of glory, which is called the perfect air. And this air is a pillar of light, for it is filled with the souls that are being purified. Such, moreover, is the agency by which the souls are saved.


But the following, again, is the cause of men’s dying: A certain virgin, fair in person, and beautiful in attire, and of most persuasive address, aims at making spoil of the princes that have been borne up and crucified on the firmament by the living Spirit; and she appears as a comely female to the princes, but as a handsome and attractive young man to the princesses ...

https://ccel.org/ccel/archelaus/manes_d ... i.vii.html


( the last line says the virgin is a shape-shifter, changing gender in response to who they're responding to )

( It's intriguing how 'gnostic' some of that is eg. " the moon delivers over its freight of souls to the æons of the Father " )

-------------

eta


Introductory Notice
to
Archelaus
< . . snip . . >
The date of the Disputation itself admits of tolerably exact settlement. Epiphanius, indeed, says that Manes fled into Mesopotamia in the ninth year of the reign of Valerianus and Gallienus, and that the discussion with Archelaus took place about the same time. This would carry the date back to about 262 a.d. But this statement, although he is followed in it by Petrus Siculus and Photius, is inconsistent with the specification of times which he makes in dealing with the error of the Manichæans in his book On the Heresies. From the 37th chapter of the Acts, however, we find that the Disputation took place, not when Gallienus, but when Probus held the empire, and that is confirmed by Cyril of Jerusalem.

The 'exact' year becomes also clearer from Eusebius, who seems to indicate the second year of the reign of Probus as the time when the Manichæan heresy attained general publicity—Secundo anno Probi…insana Manichæorum hæresis in commune humani generis malum exorta; and from Leo Magnus, who in his second Discourse on Pentecost also avers that Manichæus became notorious in the consulship of Probus and Paulinus. And as this consulship embraced part of the first and part of the second years of the empire of Probus, the Disputation itself would thus be fixed as occurring in the end of a.d. 277 or the beginning of 278, or, according to the precise calculation of Zacagnius, between July and December of the year 277. < . . snip . . >

https://ccel.org/ccel/archelaus/manes_d ... ii.ii.html


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MrMacSon
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Philo, 'On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile'

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:28 am
(cf. Philo, On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile 17.61, where he compares souls being attached to bodies to men being attached to crosses via crucifixion crucified and nailed to a tree)

Philo, On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile 17.60 — 18.63


[60] For we are told that the spies came to Hebron, and that Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were there; then it is added: “and Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt” (Numb. 13:22). It is a thoroughly philosophical proceeding to show how one and the same name has different shades of meaning. “Hebron,” for instance, means “union,” but union may be of two kinds, the soul being either made the body’s yokefellow, or being brought into fellowship with virtue.

[61] The soul, then, that submits to bodily couplings has as its inhabitants those mentioned just now. “Ahiman” means “my brother”; “Sheshai” “outside me”; “Talmai” “one hanging”: for it is a necessity to souls that love the body that the body should be looked upon as a brother, and that external good things should be valued pre-eminently: and all souls in this condition depend on and hang from lifeless things, for, like men crucified and nailed to a tree, they are affixed to perishable materials till they die.

[62] But the soul wedded to goodness obtained inhabitants excelling in the virtues, whom the double cave [Greek: 'Machpelah'] (Gen. 23:9) received in pairs, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Leah and Jacob, these being virtues and their possessors. This Hebron, a treasure-house guarding personal monuments of knowledge and wisdom, is earlier than Zoan and all Egypt. For nature wrought soul elder than body (or Egypt), and virtue elder than vice (or Zoan). for “Zoan” means “Command of evacuation”; and nature determines precedence not by length of time but by worth.

XVIII. [63] Accordingly he calls Israel, though younger in age, his “firstborn” son in dignity (Exod. 4:22), making it evident that he who sees God, the original Cause of being, is the recipient of honour, as earliest offspring of the Uncreated One, conceived by Virtue the object of the hatred of mortals, and as he to whom there is a law that a double portion, the right of the first-born, should be given as being the eldest (Deut. 21:17).





fwiw, the 'Analytical Introduction' (the '17/XVII,' etc. are not referred to)


ANALYTICAL INTRODUCTION

The treatise begins with a denunciation of anthropomorphism and a defence of allegorical interpretation suggested by the statement that “Cain went out from the face of God” (1–7).

What the Lawgiver teaches by these words is that the soul that forfeits with Adam, or forgoes with Cain, the power of seeing God, loses the joy of the quest of Him, experienced by Moses and by Abraham (8–21); and incurs instability, in lieu of the firm standing gained by them through nearness to God (22–32). Moreover, he is ‘wedded’ to the impious view that “man is the measure of all things,” and fails to regard his offspring, as Seth regarded his, as the gift of God (33–48).

The “city builded” by Cain is the creed set up by every impious soul. Its buildings are arguments, its inhabitants the self-conceited, its law lawlessness, its tower of confusion (Babel) the defence of its tenets. Even the lovers of Virtue are forced by the worldly to build such cities for them (49–59).

At this point (§ 60) Philo stops to illustrate, from the instance of Hebron, how names, like ‘Enoch,’ ‘Methuselah,’ ‘Lamech,’ can have two discrepant shades of meaning, as they have when borne by descendants of Cain and when borne by descendants of Seth. He is also led to give examples of that which is later in time being given precedence over what is earlier, as Hebron was placed above Zoan (60–65).

Having now made clear the nature of the creed which the Cain-like soul sets up, Philo turns to its offspring—‘Gaidad’ (or ‘Irad)’ is the “flock” of untended irrational faculties. ‘Maiel’ (or ‘Mehu-jael’) means “away from the Love of God”; ‘Methuselah’ is one “incurring soul death”; and Lamech one “low-cringing”; who “takes to himself” as wives Adah and Zillah (66–74).

Here Philo cannot refrain from pointing out the wrongness of a man taking a wife to himself instead of receiving her as a gift from God. He makes an attempt to account for the fact that the self-same expression is used of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses (75–78).

[continues]


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neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:28 am Thanks to Neil for the info about Acta Archelai.

I have written in the comments:

Tunc vivens spiritus creavit mundum, et indutus alias tres virtutes, descendens eduxit principes et crucifixit eos in firmamento, quod est eius corpus sphera.

Τότε τò ζῶν πνεῦμα ἔκτισε τὸν κόσμον, καὶ αὐτò φορέσαν ἑτέρας τρεῖς δυνάμεις, κατελθòν ἁνήνεγκε τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ ἐσταύρωσεν ἐν τῷ στερεώματι, ὅ ἐστιν αὐτῶν σῶμα ἡ σφαῖρα.

Curiously, the English translation has not “crucified” but “settled”, despite of the fact that the original Greek is ἐσταύρωσεν :
Then the living Spirit created the world; and bearing in himself three other powers, he came down and brought off the princes, and settled them in the firmament, which is their body, (though it is called) the sphere.

The function of the crucifixion here is clearly “to fix” forever the archontes in the sky. As fixed stars. Hence: the crucifixion as symbol of the attachment to vile matter (cfr Philo, On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile 17.61, where he compares souls being attached to bodies to men being attached to crosses via crucifixion).

So I wonder if the same symbolism is in action behind the crucifixion of Jesus in Paul:

the demons think that Jesus deserves to be "fixed", as they are, in the lower heavens (=outer space), but they are wrong, for the reasons explained by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8.
For the record, I was alerted to the Acta Archelai reference by Birger Pearson's book, Gnosticism, Judaism, and Egyptian Christianity. I quoted the reference on the blog only to try to draw attention to a fact that such an idea was not beyond the pale in that era -- as a good many moderns seem to assume.

Also for the record, I don't think the idea that Jesus was crucified in/on the firmament was the original Christian teaching. But the reasons do not include the a priori assumption that such an idea was nonsense.

And please, I really do wish we would not speak of Jesus being crucified in "outer space" -- the Act Archelai speak of Jesus being crucified on the firmament. That's not outer space.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:12 pm Also for the record, I don't think the idea that Jesus was crucified in/on the firmament was the original Christian teaching
  • That might depend on what one considers an "original Christian teaching" to be ...

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:12 pm And please, I really do wish we would not speak of Jesus being crucified in "outer space"
  • Hear, hear
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maryhelena
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Re: Evidence of crucifixion in outer space in Acta Archelai

Post by maryhelena »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:12 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:28 am Thanks to Neil for the info about Acta Archelai.

I have written in the comments:

Tunc vivens spiritus creavit mundum, et indutus alias tres virtutes, descendens eduxit principes et crucifixit eos in firmamento, quod est eius corpus sphera.

Τότε τò ζῶν πνεῦμα ἔκτισε τὸν κόσμον, καὶ αὐτò φορέσαν ἑτέρας τρεῖς δυνάμεις, κατελθòν ἁνήνεγκε τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ ἐσταύρωσεν ἐν τῷ στερεώματι, ὅ ἐστιν αὐτῶν σῶμα ἡ σφαῖρα.

Curiously, the English translation has not “crucified” but “settled”, despite of the fact that the original Greek is ἐσταύρωσεν :
Then the living Spirit created the world; and bearing in himself three other powers, he came down and brought off the princes, and settled them in the firmament, which is their body, (though it is called) the sphere.

The function of the crucifixion here is clearly “to fix” forever the archontes in the sky. As fixed stars. Hence: the crucifixion as symbol of the attachment to vile matter (cfr Philo, On the Posterity of Cain and His Exile 17.61, where he compares souls being attached to bodies to men being attached to crosses via crucifixion).

So I wonder if the same symbolism is in action behind the crucifixion of Jesus in Paul:

the demons think that Jesus deserves to be "fixed", as they are, in the lower heavens (=outer space), but they are wrong, for the reasons explained by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8.
For the record, I was alerted to the Acta Archelai reference by Birger Pearson's book, Gnosticism, Judaism, and Egyptian Christianity. I quoted the reference on the blog only to try to draw attention to a fact that such an idea was not beyond the pale in that era -- as a good many moderns seem to assume.

Also for the record, I don't think the idea that Jesus was crucified in/on the firmament was the original Christian teaching. But the reasons do not include the a priori assumption that such an idea was nonsense.

And please, I really do wish we would not speak of Jesus being crucified in "outer space" -- the Act Archelai speak of Jesus being crucified on the firmament. That's not outer space.
Richard Carrier: Jesus from Outer Space

Key to all this is a fact not often known to the public: that the earliest Christians taught Jesus came from outer space. Not in a fully modern sense, but in an ancient sense. By the time of Christianity, Judaism had long incorporated what was then “modern science,” which taught that multiple spheres of heaven physically surrounded the earth, with a spherical earth at the center, and that those heavenly realms were held up not by pillars as in more ancient teachings, but by gaseous or ether-filled spaces, extending all the way to the moon and beyond. All of that encompassed what we today mean by outer space. So the most accurate English translation of words that meant “the heavens” in antiquity is quite simply “outer space.”

Carrier, Richard. Jesus from Outer Space (pp. 4-5). Pitchstone Publishing. Kindle Edition.

(my formatting)

Image

Yep, Carrier is out to shock with the title of his book. Perhaps, however, he has inadvertently shown up as nonsense the very idea he is attempting to support i.e. running with angels and demons (may as well run with Dan Brown...) is, to our modern ears (and science) nothing but pure speculation. What earthly good is accomplished by such intellectual fantasies ? A crucifixion in the firmament, a crucifixion in the sky, in the heavens, in outer space - in an unseen world of imagination - has no value whatsoever for life on terra firma. The mind maybe a wonderful thing but it's not immune to nonsense. Did the NT writers believe in nonsense ? Or did they simply not have the scientific knowledge we have today. Or did they grasp some intellectual reality but did not have the words to articulate it - and simply used ideas common at the time ? Common ideas perhaps used allegorically rather than as a factual representation of what they understood to be 'spiritual' reality.

There is a way in which a 'spiritual' crucifixion can have value (as opposed to a flesh and blood crucifixion having no value whatsoever). That way is an intellectual 'crucifixion' - the mind gives up, surrenders, outdated ideas. Old ideas like to stick around, they don't go willingly to their netherworld, to a museum of intellectual curiosities. They strive to stick to their glory days and need a kick in the butt to move away - they need to be intellectually crucified. Methinks it is this - intellectual crucifixion of old and nonsense ideas - that is, has been, the lightening rod of Christian advancement. Heresy, it has been said, has been the mother of Christianity. Heretics are always with us - ready to nail to the cross ideas that contain dangers to human advancement - thereby opening the road for intellectual evolution to move forward.

Mythicists really need to up their game - time to move away from stories of angels and demons - and rather look to the ideas within our own world that need to be 'crucified'. Prime among them being the nonsense idea of a historical gospel Jesus - an idea that continues to stifle research into what became early christianity - hence hinders our understanding of our western cultural heritage - and what ails it today.
Last edited by maryhelena on Thu May 19, 2022 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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