"The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

gryan wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:53 pm I'm interested in the interpretation of Mark's use of "immediately" since I have an opinion about Paul's use of the same word in Gal 1:16f. My inclination is to look for a connection between immediately the most relevant verbs. To my ear, "teaching" is relevant to the idea of immediately, but it seems rude to start teaching immediately. So, perhaps even more relevant is their response: they were immediately astonished. Similarly, my sense is that the next "immediately" goes with the next response: "...there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he immediately cried out." It seems to me that "they were astonished" and "he cried out" go together one after another. Or maybe they are simultaneous. I don't know how that way of reading "immediately" would work elsewhere in Mark.
I've never really looked into it. My impression was that most scholars try to specify the grammatical sense: whether it expresses haste or whether it expresses that two actions follow each other immediately, etc.
e.g. Rodney J. Decker “The use of εὐθύς (‘immediately’) in Mark”

Due to the frequent and distinctive use of εὐθύς [EUTHUS] in Mark,<1> greater space is devoted to this deictic marker.<2> The semantic field of εὐθύς may refer to sequential action (with either the connotation of a short intervening duration of time between two events or of no intervening event/s) or it may suggest the rapidity with which an event occurs.<3> It may, in addition to these meanings, function as a conjunction with a meaning not greatly different from καί. In this case it may add a nuance of sequence (though not necessarily temporal sequence, but in the sense of, “the next thing I want to say is…”),<4> or it may be “otiose, and a mere mannerism.” 5> Both adverbial and conjunctive uses are considered together in this section.

The following categories may be observed in Mark’s use of εὐθύς and the syntactical combination καὶ εὐθύς ...

I always had a vague suspicion that it might express the working of the spirit in Jesus or the unclean spirits in others. At first glance, this view seemed to fit the use in Galatians and in Revelation as well.
gryan
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:23 am ...and in Revelation as well.
Thanks for pointing that out:

εὐθέως ἐγενόμην ἐν Πνεύματι· (Rev 4:2)
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 am
Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:09 am Paul-Louis Couchoud, surely not the last of the MYTHICISTS, would agree entirely with the quote insofar he wrote:

Once the Cross of Jesus had been erected on earth, once the name of Pontius Pilate had been discovered, the details of Jesus’s life soon developed. Each church brought its scrap of good news; here all recalled a prophecy, there a parable, formerly inspired by the Spirit of Jesus, and now ascribed to Jesus himself. The work of Jesus remained what it had ever been—to call the sinners, cure souls, save the lost, preach the doctrine of the cross and of love. To clear the way for this new step it was necessary to show that the earlier apostles had ill understood their revelation, that they had been unintelligent, carnal, and cowardly, that Jesus had reprimanded them and had given them his approval of Paul’s teaching. It was not difficult to assemble details of Jesus’s terrestrial life before he met his death on the cross out of the prophecies of the earthly life which was to follow his advent in glory.To bring a light unto the peoples, to comfort broken hearts. . . . The original theme is inverted. Paul changed it by interposing the crucifixion before the investiture. It now seemed natural to place the life on earth before the crucifixion.

(Creation of Christ, p. 135)
That is the most hilarious of all dumb theories that I ever heard.
Churches - presumably from all over the Mediterranean world - knew perfectly well the necessary details of the life of Jesus yet those that the alleged Jesus allegedly sent off, the apostles, didn't?
The name of Pontius Pilate does not appear in the Nicene Creed of 325 CE.
The name of Pontius Pilate is added to the revised Nicene Creed of 381 CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Cr ... eed_of_381

Why is it so?
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
Over at vridar, Neil once discussed McGrath's analogy that the gospels are windows through which the biblical historian looks to identify history.

The biblical historian sees the gospels as a window that needs to be “looked through” in order to try to identify the history on the other side.

Image
McGrath, James F. 2008. The Burial of Jesus: History and Faith. BookSurge Publishing. p. 57

In agreement with Dibelius and Bultmann, however, Schmidt saw the gospels (to stay with the analogy) as stained glass windows whose lead cames are secondary and whose individual pieces of glass (the pericopes) were made independently of one another, subsequently reworked and arbitrarily arranged.

The biblical historian can therefore only carefully analyze and deconstruct each individual shard and compare the shards with one another. He gets below the narrative level but recognizes very little history.
Schmidtpieces.jpg
Schmidtpieces.jpg (19.38 KiB) Viewed 125 times
andrewcriddle
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Post by andrewcriddle »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:48 pm .
Over at vridar, Neil once discussed McGrath's analogy that the gospels are windows through which the biblical historian looks to identify history.

The biblical historian sees the gospels as a window that needs to be “looked through” in order to try to identify the history on the other side.

Image
McGrath, James F. 2008. The Burial of Jesus: History and Faith. BookSurge Publishing. p. 57

In agreement with Dibelius and Bultmann, however, Schmidt saw the gospels (to stay with the analogy) as stained glass windows whose lead cames are secondary and whose individual pieces of glass (the pericopes) were made independently of one another, subsequently reworked and arbitrarily arranged.

The biblical historian can therefore only carefully analyze and deconstruct each individual shard and compare the shards with one another. He gets below the narrative level but recognizes very little history.

Schmidtpieces.jpg
What one lacks, on this model, is history as chronology i.e. any attempt to study developments in the mission and message of Jesus.
One may well know, on this model, quite a lot about things Jesus did and said.

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Giuseppe
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Post by Giuseppe »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:02 am
One may well know, on this model, quite a lot about things Jesus did and said.
or: one may well know, on this model, quite a lot about things the risen Christ did and said.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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No, one may only know what some demagogues tried to trick other people into believing about words and deeds of some imaginary Jesus.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:45 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:02 am One may well know, on this model, quite a lot about things Jesus did and said.
or: one may well know, on this model, quite a lot about things the risen Christ did and said.
schillingklaus wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 amNo, one may only know what some demagogues tried to trick other people into believing about words and deeds of some imaginary Jesus.
We still have found what we were looking for. You too :cheers:
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