"The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 am
Churches - presumably from all over the Mediterranean world - knew perfectly well the necessary details of the life of Jesus yet those that the alleged Jesus allegedly sent off, the apostles, didn't?
that is precisely the best mythicist paradigm. Evidently it assumes a very low opinion of the intelligence of the "Churches - presumably from all over the Mediterranean world" - who "knew perfectly well the necessary details of the life of Jesus": these "Churches" were composed by hallucinators, talking, under spiritual possession, in the name of Jesus by starting any logion with the words: "Jesus has said...".

Does it remember for you someone in particular?
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Note that prof Vinzent applies on Mcn the same Schmidt's conclusions on Mark:

Marcion, as we can see from the way he put together sources like Paul's letters, is not a Shakespeare avant la lettre. He does not create his stories by using historical information. And yet, he is not a Josephus or Herodotus either, but is capable of putting Paul's letters, hence serious sources, into a geographical and biographical line - applying lots of creativity by using the spare historical information from those sources. In this way, he is a clever, but perhaps oversystematising historian. If he has done the same with his gospel material, then we can assume that he brought together reliable sources, but also applied a similarly creative way in putting them together, waving them into a neat biography and creating a narrative that is geographically (important for a naukleros) and biographically neat and coherent.

Change the subject of any phrase from "Marcion" to "Mark" and you have Schmidt who talks.

Note how the implication is that Marcion was not a Shakespeare avant la lettre, not a monstruous genius.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:51 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 am
Churches - presumably from all over the Mediterranean world - knew perfectly well the necessary details of the life of Jesus yet those that the alleged Jesus allegedly sent off, the apostles, didn't?
that is precisely the best mythicist paradigm. Evidently it assumes a very low opinion of the intelligence of the "Churches - presumably from all over the Mediterranean world" - who "knew perfectly well the necessary details of the life of Jesus": these "Churches" were composed by hallucinators, talking, under spiritual possession, in the name of Jesus by starting any logion with the words: "Jesus has said...".

Does it remember for you someone in particular?
Somehow I have the feeling that you are being serious - are you really suggesting that "Jesus sayings", and perhaps some of what is in Thomas, were hallucinated together by "churches"? Needless to say, buildings can't hallucinate, so who exactly would have done this in these churches?
And how would that have been a combined effort? 2 millennia ago there was no Facebook and such (and now I'm not being serious)

1) Is this author seriously proposing this?
2) Are you seriously supporting it?
Last edited by mlinssen on Fri May 20, 2022 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:03 am Note that prof Vinzent applies on Mcn the same Schmidt's conclusions on Mark:

Marcion, as we can see from the way he put together sources like Paul's letters, is not a Shakespeare avant la lettre. He does not create his stories by using historical information. And yet, he is not a Josephus or Herodotus either, but is capable of putting Paul's letters, hence serious sources, into a geographical and biographical line - applying lots of creativity by using the spare historical information from those sources. In this way, he is a clever, but perhaps oversystematising historian. If he has done the same with his gospel material, then we can assume that he brought together reliable sources, but also applied a similarly creative way in putting them together, waving them into a neat biography and creating a narrative that is geographically (important for a naukleros) and biographically neat and coherent.

Change the subject of any phrase from "Marcion" to "Mark" and you have Schmidt who talks.

Note how the implication is that Marcion was not a Shakespeare avant la lettre, not a monstruous genius.
I'm sure that Markus will change his 2014 view on things, if he hasn't done so already.
In the entire (hi)story of gospel creation, there are only 2 monstrous geniuses: Thomas, who created an insanely deep and masterly well-wrought text about self-salvation; and Marcion, who took that and turned it into a narrative that conquered the entire world.
Though I'll reserve an open spot for John whose poetic hymn is a magnificent purely spiritual interpretation of either - or both
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:28 am

Somehow I have the feeling that you are being serious - are yu really suggesting that "Jesus sayings", and perhaps some of what is in Thomas, were hallucinated together by "churches"? Needless to say, buildings can't hallucinate, so who exactly would have done this in these churches?
Where is the problem with what I have said?
  • We know from the epistles (true or false it doesn't matter) that in the communities there was the phenomenon known as glossolalia: enough to assume that the episodes of spiritual possession were very diffuse. If confused spoken words could be believed as 'talking in tongue', then even more an entire Gospel pericope (that 'translated' the divine message X) could be believed as "History Remembered". So the oracles of the Kyrios (even when the Kyrios was YHWH) became confused as logia of Jesus. See a modern example of logia.

    So, some Gospel logia may reflect what some hallucinated as sayings of the Risen Jesus.
  • We know that some Gospel episodes are probably midrashically derived, given the extreme complexity of ironies, pun of names, etc: so we have already a self-sufficient explanation for them, i.e. some few real authors of particular genius.
Accordingly, the first evangelist collected these sources and connected them with the framework (=Pilate) necessary for his invented 'historical Jesus'.
(obviously, a man baptized by John for "Mark", or a deity walking on earth for" Marcion").
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:43 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:28 am

Somehow I have the feeling that you are being serious - are yu really suggesting that "Jesus sayings", and perhaps some of what is in Thomas, were hallucinated together by "churches"? Needless to say, buildings can't hallucinate, so who exactly would have done this in these churches?
Where is the problem with what I have said?
  • We know from the epistles (true or false it doesn't matter) that in the communities there was the phenomenon known as glossolalia: enough to assume that the episodes of spiritual possession were very diffuse. If confused spoken words could be believed as 'talking in tongue', then even more an entire Gospel pericope (that 'translated' the divine message X) could be believed. So the oracles of the Kyrios (even when the Kyrios was YHWH) became confused as logia of Jesus. See a modern example of logia.

    So, some Gospel logia may reflect what some hallucinated as sayings of the Risen Jesus.
  • We know that some Gospel episodes are probably midrashically derived, given the extreme complexity of ironies, pun of names, etc: so we have already a self-sufficient explanation for them, i.e. some few real authors of particular genius.
Accordingly, the first evangelist collected these sources and connected them with the framework necessary for his invented 'historical Jesus'.
(obviously, a man baptized by John for "Mark", or a deity walking on earth for" Marcion").
:silenced: :whistling: :confusedsmiley: :wtf: :o :shock: :? :goodmorning:

You believe in a historical Jesus, don't you? And not just anyone, but a real, truly spiritual being, the likes of which this earth has never witnessed before or after
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:59 am
You believe in a historical Jesus, don't you? And not just anyone, but a real, truly spiritual being, the likes of which this earth has never witnessed before or after
are you begging the question? In line of principle, a hallucination is not a miracle. Isn't Paul claiming again and again that he had hallucinations?
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Neither Marcion nor Thomas are geniu, but they are all based on prior traditions by marginal logical modifications. If there was anything genius that it is not any document preserved or lost whatsoever, but the invention of the eucharist, originally commemoration of Genesis 3, as a basic sacrament for a new cult.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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schillingklaus wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:35 am Neither Marcion nor Thomas are geniu, but they are all based on prior traditions by marginal logical modifications. If there was anything genius that it is not any document preserved or lost whatsoever, but the invention of the eucharist, originally commemoration of Genesis 3, as a basic sacrament for a new cult.
Do you have anything to substantiate your fables? Besides continuously repeating the same opinions - perhaps that works for you, but certainly not for me
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:01 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:59 am
You believe in a historical Jesus, don't you? And not just anyone, but a real, truly spiritual being, the likes of which this earth has never witnessed before or after
are you begging the question? In line of principle, a hallucination is not a miracle. Isn't Paul claiming again and again that he had hallucinations?
Can anyone just receive hallucinations from anyone else? Or is either the "sender" or the "receiver" supposed to possess something "special"?

With regards to [/quote]Isn't Paul claiming again and again that he had hallucinations?[/quote]:

No, absolutely and most certainly not - although I have looked for the word 'vision' and not 'hallucination':

[box=]BOOK OF Acts
Chapter 2 The Holy Spirit at Pentecost
17 ‘And it will be in the last days, God says, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your elders will dream dreams.
Chapter 7 Stephen's Address to the Sanhedrin
31 And Moses having seen it, marveled at the vision. And of him coming near to behold it, there was the voice of the Lord:
Chapter 9 The Road to Damascus
10 Now there was a certain disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias!” And he said, “Behold me, Lord.”
12 and he saw in a vision a man named Ananias, having come and having put the hands on him, so that he might see again.”
Chapter 10 Cornelius Sends for Peter
3 About the ninth hour of the day, he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God having come to him and having said to him, “Cornelius!”
8 and having related all things to them, he sent them to Joppa. Peter's Vision
17 And while Peter was perplexed in himself what the vision that he had seen might be, behold, the men having been sent from Cornelius, having inquired for the house of Simon, stood at the gate.
19 And of Peter thinking over the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are seeking you.b
Chapter 11 Peter's Report at Jerusalem
5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain vessel like a great sheet descending, being let down out of heaven by four corners, and it came down as far as me.
Chapter 12 James Killed, Peter Imprisoned
9 And having gone forth, he was following, and he did not know that what is happening by means of the angel is real, but he was thinking he saw a vision.
Chapter 16 Timothy Joins Paul and Silas
5 So indeed the churches were strengthened in the faith and were increasing in number every day. Paul's Vision of the Macedonian
9 And a vision appeared to Paul during the night: A certain man of Macedonia was standing and beseeching him and saying, “Having passed over into Macedonia, help us.”
10 Now when he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go forth to Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them. Lydia’s Conversion in Philippi
Chapter 18 Paul's Ministry in Corinth
9 Now the Lord said to Paul through a vision in the night, “Do not fear, but continue speaking, and do not be silent,
Chapter 26 Paul's Testimony to Agrippa
19 So then, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
Chapter 28 Ashore on Malta

BOOK OF 2 Corinthians
Chapter 12 Paul's Revelation
1 It behooves me to boast; it is not profitable indeed, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.[/box]

When I search for the word 'revelation', I get a little:

BOOK OF Galatians
Chapter 1 Paul's Greeting to the Galatians
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but by a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Chapter 2 The Council at Jerusalem
2 Now I went up according to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles; but apart individually to those esteemed, lest hardly I might be running or have run in vain.
BOOK OF Ephesians
Chapter 3 The Mystery of the Gospel
3 that He made known to me the mystery by revelation, just as I have written before in brief,

Which verses did you have in mind?
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