"The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Galatians is a good evidence for that.

1 Cor 14.26-33a for glossolalia.

Note that the argument stands beyond the authenticity or less of the epistles.

I am curious to know why Kunigunde thinks that "Mark" was a genius who wrote of his own hand the entire gospel, by deriving only from Jewish scriptures + Paul + (if Kunigunde is historicist/possibilist) a vague/abstract memory of a historical Jesus,

...when Schmidt has proved beyond any doubt that in Mark 1-13 the string is too much subtle to have the pearls through it produced by the same author.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:29 am Galatians is a good evidence for that.

1 Cor 14.26-33a for glossolalia.

Note that the argument stands beyond the authenticity or less of the epistles.

I am curious to know why Kunigunde thinks that "Mark" was a genius who wrote of his own hand the entire gospel, by deriving only from Jewish scriptures + Paul + (if Kunigunde is historicist/possibilist) a vague/abstract memory of a historical Jesus,

...when Schmidt has proved beyond any doubt that in Mark 1-13 the string is too much subtle to have the pearls through it produced by the same author.
That word isn't used in Berean, it translates the various forms of γλώσ with 'tongue'. 1 Cor only then:

Chapter 12 Spiritual Gifts
10 and to another working of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another distinguishing of spirits, and to a different one various kinds of tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues.
28 And some indeed God has appointed in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, various kinds of tongues.
30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
Chapter 13 Love
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
8 Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away.
Chapter 14 Prophecy and Tongues
2 For the one speaking in a tongue speaks not to men, but to God. For no one hears, but in the Spirit he utters mysteries.
4 The one speaking in a tongue edifies himself, but the one prophesying edifies the church.
5 Now I desire you all to speak in tongues, but rather that you should prophesy. Now the one prophesying is greater than the one speaking in tongues, unless he should interpret, so that the church might receive edification.
6 But now brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you, unless I should speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in teaching?
9 So also you, unless you give intelligible speech with the tongue, how will it be known what is being spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
13 Therefore he who speaks in a tongue, let him pray that he might interpret.
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
18 I thank God, speaking in tongues more than all of you.
19 But in the church, I desire to speak five words with my mind, that also I might instruct others, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
21 In the Law it has been written: “By other tongues, and by other lips, I will speak to this people, and not even thus will they hear Me, says the Lord.”a
22 So then, tongues are for a sign, not to those believing, but to the unbelieving; but prophecy is not to the unbelieving, but to the believing.
23 Therefore if the whole church gathers together in one place and all should speak in tongues, but uninstructed ones or unbelievers come in, will not they say that you are mad?
26 What then is it, brothers? When you may come together, each has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks with a tongue, let it be by two or the most three, and in turn; and let one interpret.
39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

I don't see where Paul states that Jesus spoke to him in tongue(s), either directly or indirectly - nor does he elaborate on the phenomenon.
Who can speak in tongues, when, how?

More on point to the topic:

28 And some indeed God has appointed in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, various kinds of tongues.

It would seem that Paul puts the apostles at the very first place, and those speaking in tongues at the very last - yet your author claims that the last prevailed over the first?
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Giuseppe
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:40 am More on point to the topic:

28 And some indeed God has appointed in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, various kinds of tongues.

It would seem that Paul puts the apostles at the very first place, and those speaking in tongues at the very last - yet your author claims that the last prevailed over the first?
the Apostle in Paul is only the person who has received a divine revelation by the Risen Jesus. He is 'sent' to report what the Risen Jesus has said him/her.

Those speaking in tongue are at the lowest level because they are, by the time Paul wrote, potential factors of derision by outsiders. And Paul cared about the 'public relations'.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:49 am
the Apostle in Paul is only the person who has received a divine revelation by the Risen Jesus. He is 'sent' to report what the Risen Jesus has said him/her.
Yes, you stated that before, in unambiguous terms:
Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 9:01 am are you begging the question? In line of principle, a hallucination is not a miracle. Isn't Paul claiming again and again that he had hallucinations?
Where.does.it.say.that?
Where does Paul himself claim that he had a hallucination, even if only a single one?
All we have is Acts 9 and the story on Saul:

3 Ἐν (In) δὲ (now) τῷ (-) πορεύεσθαι (proceeding), ἐγένετο (it came to pass) αὐτὸν (as he) ἐγγίζειν (draws near) τῇ (-) Δαμασκῷ (to Damascus), ἐξαίφνης (suddenly) τε (also) αὐτὸν (him) περιήστραψεν (flashed around) φῶς (a light) ἐκ (from) τοῦ (-) οὐρανοῦ (heaven).
4 καὶ (And) πεσὼν (having fallen) ἐπὶ (on) τὴν (the) γῆν (ground), ἤκουσεν (he heard) φωνὴν (a voice) λέγουσαν (saying) αὐτῷ (to him), “Σαοὺλ (Saul), Σαούλ (Saul), τί (why) με (Me) διώκεις (do you persecute)?”
5 Εἶπεν (He said) δέ (then), “Τίς (Who) εἶ (are You), Κύριε (Lord)?” Ὁ (-) δέ (And He said), “Ἐγώ (I) εἰμι (am) Ἰησοῦς (Jesus), ὃν (whom) σὺ (you) διώκεις (are persecuting). a 6 ἀλλὰ (But) ἀνάστηθι (rise up) καὶ (and) εἴσελθε (enter) εἰς (into) τὴν (the) πόλιν (city), καὶ (and) λαληθήσεταί (it will be told) σοι (you) ὅ (that) τί (what) σε (you) δεῖ (it behooves) ποιεῖν (to do).”

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Giuseppe
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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1 Cor 7:12:

To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If..

Paul specifies "not the Lord" because only a second before he had talked under spiritual possession, hence it was the Lord who talked by the mouth of Paul.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:17 am 1 Cor 7:12:

To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If..

Paul specifies "not the Lord" because only a second before he had talked under spiritual possession, hence it was the Lord who talked by the mouth of Paul.
"A second" is what I loosely translate to a couple of verses, but I'm at 1 Cor 7:1 and find none of the above.
Could you just give me a chapter and verse number please?
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:22 am
Could you just give me a chapter and verse number please?
1 Corinthians 7:10-11:
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

If Paul talks in the name of the Lord then he is under spiritual possession, at least in the eyes of the original readers.

Hence my reluctance to call even Thomas a 'philosophy' and not a religion. Never heard about a philosophy requiring hallucination/mysticism/spiritual possession as form of knowledge.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:10 pm
mlinssen wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:22 am
Could you just give me a chapter and verse number please?
1 Corinthians 7:10-11:
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

If Paul talks in the name of the Lord then he is under spiritual possession, at least in the eyes of the original readers.

Hence my reluctance to call even Thomas a 'philosophy' and not a religion. Never heard about a philosophy requiring hallucination/mysticism/spiritual possession as form of knowledge.
So you are assuming that Paul here is hallucinating or having a vision, or speaking from a recollection to that, even though he never claims to have done any of that himself?
You are interpreting that the words here aren't just made up by the author, nor Paul, but that they really indeed do come directly from God via whichever means - and then such an incident could have happened as it is described in Acts 9?
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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mlinssen wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:02 am

So you are assuming that Paul here is hallucinating or having a vision, or speaking from a recollection to that, even though he never claims to have done any of that himself?
Paul is hallucinating really or he claims (falsely) to have a hallucination, since he writes in a context where hallucination is revered as 'divine revelation' (evidence: glossolalia), hence source of authority for himself.

Obviously, if in Galatians 1 Paul claims to have known Jesus 'in me', idem as above: a real experience of spiritual possession, or a false claim to that.
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Re: "The Framework of the Story of Jesus" by Karl Ludwig Schmidt

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Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:10 am
mlinssen wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:02 am

So you are assuming that Paul here is hallucinating or having a vision, or speaking from a recollection to that, even though he never claims to have done any of that himself?
Paul is hallucinating really or he claims (falsely) to have a hallucination, since he writes in a context where hallucination is revered as 'divine revelation' (evidence: glossolalia), hence source of authority for himself.

Obviously, if in Galatians 1 Paul claims to have known Jesus 'in me', idem as above: a real experience of spiritual possession, or a false claim to that.
So much for your assertion then that Paul claims "again and again" to have visions of Jesus?
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