Jean Magne versus KL Schmidt about the silence of Jesus before Pilate

[Giuseppe]

Where KL Schmidt appears to me as a Christian apologist is when he writes:

It is striking that Jesus has so little to say in the Passion Narrative. There are early Christian martyr-acts in which the martyrs conduct themselves in this way. In other acts, by contrast, the eloquence of the one condemned to death is especially great. We can set it up as a general rule, that a report of a martyr who has rather little to say is of greater historical value than one with a lot of words. U. Wilcken has made the same observation about pagan martry-acts: cf. his essay, Zuma alexandrinsichen Antisemitismus.

(note 297 of The Framework of the Story of Jesus, my bold)

For Schmidt, the silence of Jesus before Pilate proves that the trial before Pilate is probably historical.


Now, according to Mythicist Jean Magne, the oldest Gospel story had only the following episode as 'Passion story':

So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

“You have said so,” Jesus replied.

He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

The point that Magne probably wanted to do, I have discovered after, even if Magne didn't reveal it explicitly, is that a such nucleus was based on an anti-demiurgist myth:

I note another extraordinary "coincidence":

1 Corinthians 2:6-8	On the origin of the world 115,23	Oldest Gospel Passion Story
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.	Then, when the seven rulers came, they saw him and were greatly disturbed. They went up to him and seized him. And he (viz., the chief ruler) said to the breath within him, "Who are you? And whence did you come hither?" It answered and said, "I have come from the force of the man for the destruction of your work." When they heard, they glorified him.	So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate. “Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “You have said so,” Jesus replied. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

So the evidence of a presumed historicity of the Jesus's silence before Pilate vanishes entirely.

The enigmatic answer of Jesus, "tu dices", an answer that makes Pilate fear the presumed Jesus's pretension to Israel's throne (so: sedition), is the Judaization of the answer given by the Primal Adam to the 7 Archons: "I have come from the force of the man for the destruction of your work."

Hence: the crucifixion as exaltation in the original myth.

[Sinouhe]

I can't find much on google about Jean magne. Do you know a site that shares his articles? Since he writes in French, I'm interested.

[Giuseppe]

Unfortunately, a lot of his articles are not published, even one titled "Is Jesus the Serpent of Genesis historicized?".

Next months, I may upload on archive.org his book Sacrifice et Sacerdoce, Neil allowing by his software (as he is doing with the Couchoud's book).

[Giuseppe]

A day I should take courage to buy the following expensive book:
L'écrit sans titre: Traité sur l'origine du monde (NH II,5 et XIII,2 et Brit. Lib. Or. 4926[1])

of Louis Painchaud.

[Sinouhe]

Unfortunately, a lot of his articles are not published, even one titled "Is Jesus the Serpent of Genesis historicized?".

Next months, I may upload on archive.org his book Sacrifice et Sacerdoce, Neil allowing by his software (as he is doing with the Couchoud's book).

Nice. I'll keep an eye on it

[schillingklaus]

SACRIFICE ET SACERDOCE is not related to the reconstruction of the evolution of the passion story; it is from 1975, but Jean Magne only discovered the tool required by critical adaption of the synoptic model of apologist Philippe Rolland, published in the early eighties.

The value of SACRIFICE ET SACERDOCE lies in the reconstruction of teh evolution from pre-Christian gnostic encratism to the ultimate-sacrificial theology of the Roman catholic Church, a topic neglected by naive scholars.

[schillingklaus]

Jean Magne frequently refers to the DIATAXEIS, a reconstructed liturgical text (better, an anthology of these texts) from early middle ages. The name is reconstructed and only used by a few as such, so it is diffiult to find something about it.

An online-available resource about the problem of the Diataxeis is John Baldovin, HIPPOLYTUS AND THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION: RECENT RESEARCH AND COMMENTARY

[schillingklaus]

The question "Are you the King of the Jews" is an interpolatiopn, as realized in the same work by Jean Magne. The original story has Pilate to whip and crucify Jesus right away, with no trial and no reason given.

Of course, the nucleus of Christianity is anti-demiurgist, leading to a lot of wonderous cases of editorial fatigiue in the NT, who are apologistically ignored by mainliners.

[Giuseppe]

The original story has Pilate to whip and crucify Jesus right away, with no trial and no reason given.

When he wrote about this original story, Jean Magne was still a historicist.
Only later he became mythicist by finding the original myth quasi eclipsed behind the Emmaus story.

The fact that Magne was still a historicist when he wrote 'Jésus devant Pilate' (available on jstor) may explain partially why this scholar had apparently no motive at all to justify the blunt introduction of Pilate as killer of Jesus.

[schillingklaus]

JESUS DEVANT PILATE is from 1998, almost a whole decade after LOGIQUE DES DOGMES, which contains the discovery of the deeper meaning of Emmaus in Lk.

Remarkably, apologist Bruce Chilton was not particularly consternated when hearing about Magne's ahistorical hypothesis.