Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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John T
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by John T »

gryan wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:40 am
John T wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:10 am James is not the "thorn" in Paul's side but rather a lung disease Paul believes was given to him by Satan.

Paul believed he had superior knowledge of the Gospel (grace through faith) than the Jewish/Christians who sought grace through works (James).
@John T

One of my main questions is Which James? One of the 12, James son of Alphaeus? Or one of Jesus blood brothers?

Have you considered this question?
Yes, I already considered it and and answered that many years ago on this forum. So the answer to your original question remains: No! James is not the thorn. That is, James being any and all Christians named James. John or Peter for that matter.

If you would like to bring up who the different James' were and their role in the early church in Jerusalem, then by all means start a new post. I will join you there. :cheers:
gryan
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

@JohnT

Re: Lung disease

Yes, I can relate to that diagnosis. I'm currently using a C PAP machine. Without it, I had sleep apnea and I would wake up out of oxygen with pain in my chest. When I don't clean the wonderful machine or let the water run out, my lungs hurt in the morning. So I'm increasingly aware of lung disease.

Re: Was James Paul's thorn?

I still think the argument I put forward above is better than any of the traditional ones.

That said, thanks for offering a traditional view on Paul's thorn. I think some form of the illness or injury interpretation will be on the winning side of this argument when the votes come in among various future translation committees. As far as I know, the idea that James the less/the Lord's brother was Paul's thorn is unique to yours truly. On the face of it, what are the chances that I'm right? What are the chances that I will convince the majority of scholars, being a non-PhD independent researcher? Not great.
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John T
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by John T »

gryan wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:32 am @JohnT

Re: Lung disease

Yes, I can relate to that diagnosis. I'm currently using a C PAP machine. Without it, I had sleep apnea and I would wake up out of oxygen with pain in my chest. When I don't clean the wonderful machine or let the water run out, my lungs hurt in the morning. So I'm increasingly aware of lung disease.

Keep in mind, Paul is retelling how he had suffered much physical abuse for his belief and lists just a few examples: Forty lashes, beaten with rods and stoning. etc,.. Paul must have been a badly scared and sickly man.

Even with all that, he is compelled to address the false rumors that he is motivated by monetary gain and social status. That he tricked them (Corinthians) and financially burden them. 2 Cor 12:16-18.

James the Just is not the source of the infliction, therefore James the Just can not be a thorn in Paul's side.

We then to forget that, back then, diseases were considered to be from evil spirits. They did not understand how a virus or bacteria could be the cause of infectious disease. For them, to be cured from a debilitating disease would be considered a miracle. The ultimate miracle would be a cure for the ultimate disease, death.
davidmartin
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by davidmartin »

nothing to do with the debate seeing you mention illness you might appreciate this quotation from another ode! i was working on it earlier and thought anyone who was sick would appreciate this one
i'm currently trying to come up with a better english translation (rewording really+a few guesses here and there) of the odes
To the Lord I raised my arms up high
toward His kindness and He ripped away my chains
then my Helper lifted me up to the heights
in His kindness and His salvation
I stripped off darkness and put on light
And in the members of my body there was no pain or disease or suffering
But rather a healer for me was the Thought of the Lord in intimate companionship forever
As I was lifted up in the light, I passed before His face.
And I was near Him, praising and thanking Him.
He caused my heart to overflow, and it was found in my mouth; and it sprang forth unto my lips.
My face became saturated with the ecstasy of the Lord in His praise
for ref: 'ecstacy' is usually rendered 'exultation' but who knows that word these days. i want ordinary words and the odes are pretty well ecstatic so...
its also difficult because 'helper' implies the Eve of Genesis but for 'healer' Zinner also recons helper carries connotations of healing in the word and i believe him it fits, so it becomes healer there while leaving helper in the 3rd line. Zinner recons 'fellowship' is not right the word is used for marriage so i put intimate companionship etc... but i might change it again. of course 'the face of God' and his personified kindness and salvation could be alluding to Christ here or the Spirit. probably both. much less well defined than say the apostle
gryan
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

John T wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:19 am
James the Just is not the source of the infliction, therefore James the Just can not be a thorn in Paul's side.
There is no one named "James the Just" in the New Testament, of course.

My project is to read Galatians as a coherent letter. I don't think Gal 4:12-14 is interpreted correctly by those who say Paul was ill or injured when he proclaimed the gospel to the Galatians. As you know, I have an alternative to the traditional translations:

Become as I, since I also became as you. Brothers, I beg of you.
You have not wronged me, but
you know that it was because of [your] fleshly weakness and that I proclaimed the Gospel to you originally,
and
[you know that it was because of] your temptation in my flesh that you did not count as nothing or reject me, but as an angel of God you welcomed me--even as Christ Jesus.

As I read the syntax, Paul became as the Gentile Galatians, "weak with the weak" with respect to their Gentile "fleshly weakness." One key is "your fleshly weakness" (as pointed out by Troy W. Martin, Whose Flesh, JSNT)

Compare Rom 6:19,
I am speaking in human terms, because of your fleshly weakness (διὰ τὴν ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν). For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Last edited by gryan on Fri May 27, 2022 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
gryan
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

davidmartin wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:27 am nothing to do with the debate seeing you mention illness you might appreciate this quotation from another ode! i was working on it earlier and thought anyone who was sick would appreciate this one
i'm currently trying to come up with a better english translation (rewording really+a few guesses here and there) of the odes
To the Lord I raised my arms up high
toward His kindness and He ripped away my chains
then my Helper lifted me up to the heights
in His kindness and His salvation
I stripped off darkness and put on light
And in the members of my body there was no pain or disease or suffering
But rather a healer for me was the Thought of the Lord in intimate companionship forever
As I was lifted up in the light, I passed before His face.
And I was near Him, praising and thanking Him.
He caused my heart to overflow, and it was found in my mouth; and it sprang forth unto my lips.
My face became saturated with the ecstasy of the Lord in His praise
for ref: 'ecstacy' is usually rendered 'exultation' but who knows that word these days. i want ordinary words and the odes are pretty well ecstatic so...
its also difficult because 'helper' implies the Eve of Genesis but for 'healer' Zinner also recons helper carries connotations of healing in the word and i believe him it fits, so it becomes healer there while leaving helper in the 3rd line. Zinner recons 'fellowship' is not right the word is used for marriage so i put intimate companionship etc... but i might change it again. of course 'the face of God' and his personified kindness and salvation could be alluding to Christ here or the Spirit. probably both. much less well defined than say the apostle
Well done! Thanks for sharing this!
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John T
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by John T »

gryan wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:39 am
John T wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:19 am
James the Just is not the source of the infliction, therefore James the Just can not be a thorn in Paul's side.
There is no one named "James the Just" in the New Testament, of course.
Of course. :cheers:
ABuddhist
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by ABuddhist »

John T wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 5:16 am
gryan wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:40 am
John T wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:10 am James is not the "thorn" in Paul's side but rather a lung disease Paul believes was given to him by Satan.

Paul believed he had superior knowledge of the Gospel (grace through faith) than the Jewish/Christians who sought grace through works (James).
@John T

One of my main questions is Which James? One of the 12, James son of Alphaeus? Or one of Jesus blood brothers?

Have you considered this question?
Yes, I already considered it and and answered that many years ago on this forum. So the answer to your original question remains: No! James is not the thorn. That is, James being any and all Christians named James. John or Peter for that matter.
Would you mind linking to us your reasoning? "Lung disease" is a remarkably specific condition to derive from a reference to a thorn.
gryan
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

John T wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 8:08 am
gryan wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:39 am
John T wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:19 am
James the Just is not the source of the infliction, therefore James the Just can not be a thorn in Paul's side.
There is no one named "James the Just" in the New Testament, of course.
Of course. :cheers:
@JohnT

Just curious: What is your favorite music to listen to on youtube?

This is a serious question. I would like to know so that I could enjoy it with you.
John2
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by John2 »

gryan wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 4:32 am
What do you think of my method of differentiating two Jameses?

I think it's a fair guess, but I find the idea that there is one James in Galatians more persuasive. The key for me would be Hegisippus (who I regard as a great source), where leadership of the church and the elements of being a "brother of the Lord" and a "zaddik" (or "Righteous One") come together in one James, and since a zaddik is commonly likened to a "pillar" in Judaism, I take that James to be the "pillar" and the "brother of the Lord" mentioned in Galatians.

It's hard for me to fit James the son of Alphaeus into all this since as far as I can tell he is only mentioned in the list of apostles and nothing else is said about him in the NT. And what Papias supposedly says about him in Fragment X is arguably spurious, as per Lightfoot:

... the following reasons seem conclusive: (1) The last sentence ‘Maria dicitur etc.’ is evidently very late, and is, as Dr. Mill says, ‘justly rejected by Grabe.’ Grabe says, ‘addidit is qui descripsit ex suo’; but the passage is continuous in the MS, and there is neither more nor less authority for assigning this to Papias than the remainder of the extract. (2) The statement about ‘Maria uxor Alphei’ is taken from Jerome (adv. Helvid.) almost word for word, as Dr. Mill has seen; and it is purely arbitrary to reject this as spurious and accept the rest as genuine. (3) The writings of Papias were in Jerome’s hands, and eager as he was to claim the support of authority, he could not have failed to refer to testimony which was so important and which so entirely confirms his view in the most minute points. Nor is it conceivable that a passage like this, coming from so early a writer, should not have impressed itself very strongly on the ecclesiastical tradition of the early centuries, whereas in fact we discover no traces of it.

For these reasons the extract seemed to be manifestly spurious; but I might have saved myself the trouble of examining the Bodleian MS and writing these remarks, if I had known at the time, that the passage was written by a mediaeval namesake of the Bishop of Hierapolis, Papias the author of the ‘Elementarium,’ who lived in the 11th century. This seems to have been a standard work in its day, and was printed four times in the 15th century under the name of the Lexicon or Vocabulist.


http://www.textexcavation.com/papias.html


As for the identity of James the Less in Mark, I take that to be James the "pillar"/"brother of the Lord"/"Righteous One" above, given that he is said to have a mother named Mary and a brother named Joses and perhaps a sister (Salome) in 15:40 and prior to this (in 6:3) Jesus' brother James is said to have had a mother named Mary and a brother named Joses and sisters.
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