Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by davidmartin »

kind of yes, but i think i don't want to worry too much about exactly how prominent this Jewish Christian phase was, because the main thing is there was an assembly there that was 'Jewish Christian' in some way. Having rejected the 'inherited' view that it was a 'James the just' style strictly observant system (the reconstructed Ebionites).. based on other avenues of research, this leaves it open to resemble more the apostle Paul in many ways but perhaps not all ways. This then would be the bedrock it grew from originally, yet appears fleeting and of the ancient past by the mid 2nd century, but it's what interests me the most, it's like exploring something new just to think about it

It's not that i'm trying to authenticate Paul particularly but that's a side effect of what i'm seeing, there is a continuity there on many of the basic elements if the Odes is mid 1st century. The only thing i'm sure of is the movement had become factional and developed splits. One must have been whoever Paul ran up against, since they pop up again as the Ebionites. But there were many more each claiming to be authentic. this happens in popular movements all the time
Still for it to have grown like that it had to have had solid roots in the place it started from, i guess it's a bit of an unknown to speculate on what it looked like back then i'm just going for one based around a salvationary messiah not the one whose job it is to defeat the Romans, a kind of revival movement in what is authentically Jewish, but what does that even mean? I don't know but i'd say that was the idea and this new movement was all about this with a mind to spread outside and would have figured out whether converts needed circumcising or not, there would be no doubt or else it undermines how credible a historicist reading is is how i see it, all such problems have to be later as a result of factions
Just guesswork here. No claim to being correct!
gryan
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

davidmartin wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 3:08 am gryan doesn't the gospel of John support your theory, in that Jesus's brothers are said not to believe him and neither is James mentioned (by name)?
i think it does but i wondered whether Salome might be found in John somewhere?
RE: Salome in GJohn

John 19:25-27 ESV
...but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother (τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ) and his mother’s sister (καὶ ἡ ἀδελφὴ τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ ), Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

I'm seeing four women: Jesus' natural mother (GMark's mother of James the less and Joses), his mother's natural sister (GMark/GMatt Salome/the mother of the Zebedee's sons), Mary of Clopas ("the other Mary" -- natural mother of the other James, aka "the other disciple/the beloved one," the pillar James, who gave Paul the right hand of fellowship --James son of Alpheus -- not to be confused with James the less/the Lord's blood brother/Paul's thorn) and Mary Magdaline.

But if James son of Alphaeus was so beloved and so truly great, why was he so anonymous in GJohn?
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

gryan wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:13 am RE: Salome in GJohn

John 19:25-27 ESV
...but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother (τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ) and his mother’s sister (καὶ ἡ ἀδελφὴ τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ ), Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

I'm seeing four women: Jesus' natural mother (GMark's mother of James the less and Joses), his mother's natural sister (GMark/GMatt Salome/the mother of the Zebedee's sons), Mary of Clopas ("the other Mary" -- natural mother of the other James,
Doesn't the text rather suggest that there are three women and Mary of Clopas is Jesus' aunt (according to John)? There is no "and".
gryan
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:56 am Doesn't the text rather suggest that there are three women and Mary of Clopas is Jesus' aunt (according to John)? There is no "and".
Thanks for engaging! Raymond Brown (1970) made a comment which I find persuasive on this point:

"The thesis that three women are involved would mean that we read: "his mother, and his mother's sister (Mary of Clopas), and Mary Magdalene. Although grammatically this is possible, there is some unlikelihood that Mary, Jesus' mother, would have a sister also named Mary. The Syriac Peshitta and the Titian definitely think of four women, for they insert "and" between the second and third designations: 'his mother's sister and Mary the wife of Clopas.' Even without this clarification, the sentence structure would seem to favor four woman: "A and B, C and D."
Last edited by gryan on Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
gryan
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

@Kunigunde Kreuzerin

My reading of John reflects my prior reading of the Jameses of Mark and Galatians:

Mark 15:47-16:1
Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses (the natural mother of James the less/James the Lord's brother and of Jesus) saw where he was laid. When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James ("the other Mary"/the natural mother of James son of Alphaeus/James the pillar), and Salome (the mother of Zebedee's sons) bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

At two interconnected points, my thesis is undoing the influence of Jerome's arguments in Perpetual Virginity of Mary, and Commentary on Galatians. In Mark, as I read it, James the less was not James son of Alphaeus; and also, in Galatians, James the Lord's brother (of "some from James" Gal 1:19/2:12) was not James the pillar.

Do you have a response to my re-reading of these characters in Mark vis-a-vis Galatians?
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JoeWallack
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Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary

Post by JoeWallack »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WfbmIkyISs&t=38s
gryan wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:57 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:56 am Doesn't the text rather suggest that there are three women and Mary of Clopas is Jesus' aunt (according to John)? There is no "and".
Thanks for engaging! Raymond Brown's (1970) made a comment which I find persuasive on this point:

"The thesis that three women are involved would mean that we read: "his mother, and his mother's sister (Mary of Clopas), and Mary Magdalene. Although grammatically this is possible, there is some unlikelihood that Mary, Jesus' mother, would have a sister also named Mary. The Syriac Peshitta and the Titian definitely think of four women, for they insert "and" between the second and third designations: 'his mother's sister and Mary the wife of Clopas.' Even without this clarification, the sentence structure would seem to favor four woman: "A and B, C and D."
JW:
The late great Raymond Brown was pretty good at considering possibilities by Believer standards but not that great by Skeptic standards.

19
25 These things therefore the soldiers did. But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother`s sister, Mary the [wife] of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
As has been pointed out Ad Nazorean on these unholy boards "John" never identifies Jesus' mother as "Mary". Strange/bizarre/macabre. No problem then with "John's" Jesus' Mother's Sister being "Mary" (for "John"). And not much of a problem for Believers thinking that there might have been four Marys here. Hell, Eusebius, considered by Believers as the greatest Church historian of all time, taught that there were two Mary Magdalenes at the end of GMark.


Joseph

MAIDEN, n. A young person of the unfair sex addicted to clewless conduct and views that madden to crime. The genus has a wide geographical distribution, being found wherever sought and deplored wherever found. The maiden is not altogether unpleasing to the eye, nor (without her piano and her views) insupportable to the ear, though in respect to comeliness distinctly inferior to the rainbow, and, with regard to the part of her that is audible, bleaten out of the field by the canary—which, also, is more portable.

The New Porphyry
gryan
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Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

JoeWallack wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:09 am As has been pointed out Ad Nazorean on these unholy boards "John" never identifies Jesus' mother as "Mary". Strange/bizarre/macabre.
I am not aware of whatever it was that "has been pointed out Ad Nazorean".

Please explain.

Why didn't "John" identify Jesus' mother as "Mary"?
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

gryan wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:16 am @Kunigunde Kreuzerin

Do you have a response to my re-reading of these characters in Mark vis-a-vis Galatians?
No, but you are probably right that there is a connection between Mark 15:40, 47; 16:1 and Gal 2:7ff. It's a really interesting thougt and worth exploring further.
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JoeWallack
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Re: Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary

Post by JoeWallack »

gryan wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:24 am
JoeWallack wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:09 am As has been pointed out Ad Nazorean on these unholy boards "John" never identifies Jesus' mother as "Mary". Strange/bizarre/macabre.
I am not aware of whatever it was that "has been pointed out Ad Nazorean".

Please explain.

Why didn't "John" identify Jesus' mother as "Mary"?
JW:
You'll have to ask "John". Maybe a seance (picture asking the spiritual medium "I'm looking for a "Mary" who was at Jesus' tomb" and receiving a chorus of "I'm here's")?

What's especially strange here is GJohn is priMarily a reaction to GMark. Specifically, GMark represents the original Christianity which did not want historical witness to Jesus. GJohn represents subsequent orthodox Christianity which did. Presumably, Jesus' supposed mother would be the best potential witness to the supposed historical Jesus. Generally GJohn converts non believers in GMark to believers and unnamed to named in GMark. So why exorcise the name of Jesus' mother?

Identifying this person primarily by "mother" title rather than name fits the exchange theme better. Whose "mother"? The exchange theme is the earlier, funnier (Markan) theme. It does look like GJohn was originally Gnostic and then forcibly (so to speak) converted to orthodox. My guess is the lack of Jesus' mother being called "Mary" is because that was how GJohn was originally written. The orthodox added Jesus' mother's sister as an additional supposed witness and there already was a tradition of confusion over just how many Mary's were there. So Jesus' mother's sister got to be Mary too which meant Jesus' mother could no longer be called Mary. At least not in the same sentence.

By the Way, you ask a lot of questions for someone from New Jersey.


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gryan
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Re: Was "James the Lord's brother" Paul's thorn?

Post by gryan »

@JoeWallack
"He was a good actor, all around good guy and best of all a good boy…signed Epstein's Mother"

Re: John's gospel does not give a name for Jesus' mother.

I read the omission as a hedge against undue reverence toward Mary, and thus, similar to Luke 11:27-18,

"As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, 'Blessed is the womb that bore You, and blessed are the breasts that nursed You!'

But He replied, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.'"
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