The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

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MrMacSon
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The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

Romans 1:1-6 (YLT)


1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God 2 which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings 3 concerning His Son, (having come/γενομένου of the seed/σπέρματος of David according to the flesh, 4 who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord; 5 through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name; 6 among whom are also ye, the called of Jesus Christ


having come = γενομένου = genomenou - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/3-4.htm - a derivative of ginomai/γίνομαι


Ginomai / γίνομαι
  1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
  2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
    1. of events
  3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
    1. of men appearing in public
  4. to be made, finished
    1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
  5. to become, be made

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicon ... nomai.html

Galatians 4:4 uses γενόμενον/genomenon twice

γενόμενον ἐκ γυναικός, γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον
....made. of. a woman ... made .under the law

Throughout the rest of the New Testament ginomai/γίνομαι is never used for birth or born: gennao is, 97 times apparently.
  • (ginomai/γίνομαι has occasionally been used for birth or born is other places in Greek writings)




Einar Thomassen asserts in The Spiritual Seed: The Church of the “Valentinians", 2006, that


... a very important principle of Valentinian soteriology must be grasped: when the Saviour descended into the cosmos, he put on as his body, or flesh, the spiritual seed of Sophia. ...

... When the Saviour eventually descended into the cosmos, the spiritual seed constituted his body. Thus they were incarnated concorporeally with the Saviour. [p.30]


She said that in relation to quoting the start of Excerpt from Theodotus (from a set of notes written by Clement of Alexandria preserved in Codex Laurentianus V,3.) thus:


(1:1)
What Sophia brought forth,...as flesh for the Logos,
[was] the spiritual seed/σπέρμα that the Saviour put on when he descended.
(2) ... [the Father] commits the entire spiritual seed/σπέρμα, the elect ...


In other words, the spiritual seed was the flesh the Saviour or Logos [or both] put on when he descended

The same concept appears in Excerpt from Theodotus in 26:1 of their source, a set of notes written by Clement of Alexandria preserved in Codex Laurentianus V,3 :


The visible part of Jesus was Sophia/Wisdom and the έκκλησία of the superior seed/σπερμάττων
which he put on through the flesh, as Theodotus says.
But the invisible part was the Name, which is the only-begotten Son.


In this case, the Saviour’s flesh is Wisdom and the έκκλησία/assemby(?) of the superior spiritual seed (which he put on (στολίζειν, stolizein) when he descended into the world)

One might consider this is a meaning or concept, either in it's entirety or in part, that Paul meant for "His Son having come/been made/γενομένου of the seed/σπέρματος of David according to the flesh" in Romans 1:3, perhaps also in light of Romans 1:4 and 1:6
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

fwiw,
biblehub.com seems a little disingenuous when it comes to both Romans 1:3 and Galatians 4:4. It gives 'having come'/γενομένου in the interlinear of Romans 1:3, and it's version of Thayer's Greek Lexicon here gives

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being: absolutely

but

a. after/beyond that things get a little vague


John 1:15, 30 (ἔμπροσθεν μου γέγονεν); John 8:58 (πρίν Ἀβραάμ γενέσθαι); 1 Corinthians 15:37 (τό σῶμα τό γενησόμενον);
ἐκ τίνος, to be born, Romans 1:3 (ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυίδ); Galatians 4:4 (ἐκ γυναικός) ...


and
b. the interlinear for Galatians 4:4 gives the meaning of γενόμενον as 'having been born' both times.

While https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gal/4/4/s_1095004 has

.."But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law"

Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gryan
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by gryan »

Interesting material I had not seen before. Thanks for this.

Seems to me that Rom 1:3 has Paul saying that Jesus was descended from the genetic line of David.

The idea of seed=flesh has to do with the metaphor of Jesus death and resurrection vis-a-vis old and new creation in 1 Cor 15.

On ginomai/γίνομαι in ref to birth: What about the lexicons and commentaries that say this is often used in ref to birth in Greek lit?
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by gryan »

PS. I'm currently studying this gnomic instruction which feature flesh and sow (seed implied) language together:

Gal 6:8
ὅτι ὁ
σπείρων εἰς τὴν σάρκα ἑαυτοῦ
ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς θερίσει
φθοράν,
ὁ δὲ
σπείρων εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα
ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος θερίσει
ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

The one who
sows into his own flesh (τὴν σάρκα ἑαυτοῦ, cf. τὴν ἑαυτοῦ σάρκα, Eph 5:29),
from the flesh will reap
decay;
but the one who
sows into the Spirit,
from the Spirit will reap
eternal life.

I'm perplexed. What does "sows into his own flesh" vs. "sows into the spirit/Spirit" mean? In thought and practice, what would switching from one to the other involve?
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

gryan wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:59 am The idea of seed=flesh has to do with the metaphor of Jesus death and resurrection vis-a-vis old and new creation in 1 Cor 15
Romans 1:4 adds that concept
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:33 am
Romans 1:1-6 (YLT)


... His Son (having come of the seed/σπέρματος of David according to the flesh, 4 ...marked out Son of God in power...by the rising again from the dead) [of]Jesus Christ our Lord ...


(dunno why the brackets are in that YLT version: maybe the passage therein is a later addition(?))

gryan wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:59 am Seems to me that Rom 1:3 has Paul saying that Jesus was descended from the genetic line of David
That's the traditional view, but, as I indicate with reference to Rom 1:4 above, v.3 is qualified with the surrounding verses:

Even "among whom are also ye, the called of Jesus Christ" of v.5b implies or even invokes the notion of "the έκκλησία of the seed" in one of those Extracts/Extracts of Theodotus
Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

gryan wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:59 am On ginomai/γίνομαι in ref to birth: What about the lexicons and commentaries that say this is often used in ref to birth in Greek lit?
As I indicate in the second post, some of the commentary in at least one site is variable and seems biased

And
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:33 am
Ginomai / γίνομαι
  1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
  2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
    1. of events
  3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
    1. of men appearing in public
  4. to be made, finished
    1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
  5. to become, be made
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicon ... nomai.html


Throughout the rest of the New Testament ginomai/γίνομαι is never used for birth or born: gennao is, 97 times apparently.
  • (ginomai/γίνομαι has occasionally been used for birth or born is other places in Greek writings)
gryan
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by gryan »

What are you driving at? Something to do with "historical Jesus"?
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

gryan wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:05 am
PS. I'm currently studying this gnomic instruction which feature flesh and sow (seed implied) language together:

Gal 6:8
ὅτι ὁ
σπείρων εἰς τὴν σάρκα ἑαυτοῦ
ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς θερίσει
φθοράν,
ὁ δὲ
σπείρων εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα
ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος θερίσει
ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

The one who
sows into his own flesh (τὴν σάρκα ἑαυτοῦ, cf. τὴν ἑαυτοῦ σάρκα, Eph 5:29),
from the flesh will reap
decay;
but the one who
sows into the Spirit,
from the Spirit will reap
eternal life.

I'm perplexed. What does "sows into his own flesh" vs. "sows into the spirit/Spirit" mean? In thought and practice, what would switching from one to the other involve?

I don't know, but a concept of duality underpinning many of these Christian theologies comes to mind

"the one who
sows into the Spirit,
from the Spirit will reap
eternal life"

versus

The one who
sows into his own flesh
from the flesh will reap
decay
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

gryan wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:46 am What are you driving at? Something to do with "historical Jesus"?
No. Just considering possible wider or deeper meanings of Romans 1:3 than are commonly asserted and understood or assumed
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by gryan »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:50 am
I don't know, but a concept of duality underpinning many of these Christian theologies comes to mind

"the one who
sows into the Spirit,
from the Spirit will reap
eternal life"

versus

The one who
sows into his own flesh
from the flesh will reap
decay
Yes, cf. perishable vs imperishable in 2 Cor 15:50: "I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable (οὐδὲ ἡ φθορὰ τὴν ἀφθαρσίαν κληρονομεῖ).

According to Wikipedia, the Valentinians pondered this verse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentini ... the_Church
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