zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by Charles Wilson »

mlinssen wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:43 pmThe fun is in the extent to which narratives are created and the existing ones bent or even broken, in order to allow for an HJ
mlinssen --

I appreciate your understanding of the situation, mlinssen!

The question becomes "Why a Historical Jesus (i.e. the existence of the NT) AT ALL"?
This Site has been a nice Forum for the discussion of "Crucified Jesus" vs. "I say, 'Rise, little girl...'"

If your Thesis is correct, there is a gap - a Logic Gap - between Thomas and the Gospels.

I'm happy examining the Stories that appear as a Story of Semitic Origin rewritten for the Glory of the Flavians/Rome.
Assuming any of that is True, then WHY? What did Thomas do to FORCE the NT to be written as it was?

You make a great point here.

CW
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mlinssen
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by mlinssen »

Charles Wilson wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:10 am
mlinssen wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:43 pmThe fun is in the extent to which narratives are created and the existing ones bent or even broken, in order to allow for an HJ
mlinssen --

I appreciate your understanding of the situation, mlinssen!

The question becomes "Why a Historical Jesus (i.e. the existence of the NT) AT ALL"?
This Site has been a nice Forum for the discussion of "Crucified Jesus" vs. "I say, 'Rise, little girl...'"

If your Thesis is correct, there is a gap - a Logic Gap - between Thomas and the Gospels.

I'm happy examining the Stories that appear as a Story of Semitic Origin rewritten for the Glory of the Flavians/Rome.
Assuming any of that is True, then WHY? What did Thomas do to FORCE the NT to be written as it was?

You make a great point here.

CW
Good point Charles, it's a gradual story. A baby doesn't turn into an old man, there are a few steps in between needed in order to present that as feasible

viewtopic.php?p=135639#p135639
Charles Wilson
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by Charles Wilson »

mlinssen wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:35 am
Charles Wilson wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:10 am
mlinssen wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:43 pmThe fun is in the extent to which narratives are created and the existing ones bent or even broken, in order to allow for an HJ
The question becomes "Why a Historical Jesus (i.e. the existence of the NT) AT ALL"?
This Site has been a nice Forum for the discussion of "Crucified Jesus" vs. "I say, 'Rise, little girl...'"
***
What did Thomas do to FORCE the NT to be written as it was?
it's a gradual story. A baby doesn't turn into an old man, there are a few steps in between needed in order to present that as feasible
An example:

This is the History. In the Interregnum between Vitellius and Vespasian, the "VII Gemina, the 'twin legion'":

https://www.livius.org/articles/legion/ ... /?&lang=en

"In the same year, the commander of the expeditionary army that had been sent against the rebellious Jews, Vespasian, revolted. Many legions sided with him, and among them was VII Hispana, which fought for Vespasian in November and December 69. In northern Italy, the army of the Danube defeated the Vitellian troops. The commander of the Seventh, Antonius Primus, was the first to occupy Rome - for the second time in fourteen months.

When Vespasian had become emperor, he reconstituted the seventh legion, adding soldiers from the disbanded I Germanica and calling it VII Gemina, the "twin legion". It served in Pannonia and Germania Superior, where it received an additional surname, Felix, "lucky"..."

There is more here but the implication is clear. The "Twin" camps in Northern Italy. Is Vespasian the True Emperor? "I won't believe it until I see it."

But...but...where is that in the sayings of the Gospel of Thomas?
it's a gradual story. A baby doesn't turn into an old man, there are a few steps in between needed in order to present that as feasible
You got that right.

THNX,

CW
gryan
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by gryan »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:16 am A preliminary description--without, yet, specific titles or abstracts or detailed schedule--may interest some here (me, because of some of the participants):

"The Next Quest for the Historical Jesus is a conference and larger project run by James Crossley and Chris Keith. The conference will be both virtual (11 July) and hybrid (15–16 July), with the in-person event happening at the Higgins Art Gallery & Museum/Panacea Museum, Bedford.

The organisers argue that the quest for the historical Jesus has stagnated in the twenty-first century. Nevertheless, the Next Quest project accepts two recent developments in the field. It accepts that the criteria of authenticity and other attempts to get "behind" the Gospel texts have been largely unsuccessful. It accepts that celebrated debates about Jesus's Jewishness have largely updated older anti-Jewish tendencies in historical Jesus scholarship. Building on these developments, the Next Quest is a statement about where historical Jesus studies can go from here, and essentially an answer to the question, "What's next?"

For participants, the overarching aim of this project is that the Next Quest for the historical Jesus will be characterized by innovative approaches to established topics and innovative approaches to topics ignored in previous quests, or at least by their most prominent representatives. This is not, then, a claim to unparalleled newness. Indeed, the organisers and participants stress that the Next Quest will bring to the fore older (and recent) scholarship that was marginalised and overlooked in previous quests for the historical Jesus.

The Next Quest for the historical Jesus will move beyond searching for an uninterpreted reality “behind” the texts and hypothesize the historical Jesus by means of the cultural and historical processes by which particular images of Jesus were produced and transmitted. With this in mind, participants will look at a number of areas which have potential to revitalise mainstream historical Jesus studies, including (among many others): the social history of scholarship, reception histories, “religion” as a human phenomenon, networks, fame and aura, ancient media, scribalism and memory, the world of slavery, class conflict in pre-modern societies, materialist conceptions of history, violence and trauma, the body, omissions and silences, and how early ideas about Jesus interacted with ancient constructions of race, ethnicity, gender, and sexuality. And, in line with CenSAMM’s aims, the project will look at the cross-cultural phenomenon of millenarianism and think about how millenarianism has functioned in pre-modern agrarian societies.

The Next Quest for the Historical Jesus will foundationally be a curious quest, a broader quest, a wide-open quest, and one that explicitly links Jesus studies to innovative approaches to Christian origins and the Humanities generally—and brings it up-to-date as a subfield within them both.

Conference participants include: Giovanni Bazzana, James Crossley, Tucker Ferda, Paula Fredriksen, Deane Galbraith, Mark Goodacre, Meghan Henning, Nathan Johnson, Brandon Massey, Chris Keith, John Kloppenborg, Halvor Moxnes, Robert Myles, Gideon Wongi Park, Janelle Peters, Taylor Petrey, Adele Reinhartz, Rafael Rodriguez, Sarah Rollens, Nathan Shedd, Mitzi Smith, Joan Taylor, Matthew Thiessen, Robyn Walsh, Matthew Whitlock, Sean Winter, Stephen Young

ZOOM REGISTRATION NOW AVAILABLE

Part I (virtual only): 11 July, 12noon–5.30pm (UK time), https://tinyurl.com/szruyth9
Part II (hybrid): 15–16 July, 10am–5pm (UK time), https://tinyurl.com/5x2jj75c
Upcoming events both livestreamed on the Enoch Seminar’s Facebook page.

The conference is sponsored by CenSAMM, the Enoch Seminar, and Eerdmans Publishing.
StephenGoranson:

Thank you so much for announcing this excellent event here on Early Writings Forum!

Today is the last day, and it is the best!
yakovzutolmai
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by yakovzutolmai »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:16 am A preliminary description--without, yet, specific titles or abstracts or detailed schedule--may interest some here (me, because of some of the participants):

"The Next Quest for the Historical Jesus is a conference and larger project run by James Crossley and Chris Keith. The conference will be both virtual (11 July) and hybrid (15–16 July), with the in-person event happening at the Higgins Art Gallery & Museum/Panacea Museum, Bedford.

The organisers argue that the quest for the historical Jesus has stagnated in the twenty-first century. Nevertheless, the Next Quest project accepts two recent developments in the field. It accepts that the criteria of authenticity and other attempts to get "behind" the Gospel texts have been largely unsuccessful. It accepts that celebrated debates about Jesus's Jewishness have largely updated older anti-Jewish tendencies in historical Jesus scholarship. Building on these developments, the Next Quest is a statement about where historical Jesus studies can go from here, and essentially an answer to the question, "What's next?"
Jesus is simply and transparently Izates of Adiabene. His mother Helena is Mary. Helena's remains remain at the Louvre, paralleling the "Da Vinci Code" finale and implying that the medieval crusaders whose legacy carried on were well aware of the truth.

Hatra. Shavarshan. Mohammed. All legacies of Adiabene. Adiabene = Assyria's old royalty to whom the Arab tribes of 200-100 BC were still loyal.

Izates fought Sampsiceramus II, per Josephus "Abia" in 42 AD. In conjunction with Herod Agrippa's defiance of Rome and its clients.

Agrippa, Adiabene and the Boethusian priestly family stood politically against Rome and the Ananian family from 42 AD - 50 AD. Annas the "Rich Man" persecuted Lazarus AKA Elionaeus Boethus brother of Martha, while Agrippa was assasinated.

Directly after this, Theudas preaches and is killed. Directly after that, Tiberius Alexander of Philo's family persecutes James and Simon. The persecution ends with the famine of 48, which in the New Testament is supported by the brethren of Antioch, but in the Talmud and Josephus is supported by Helena of Adiabene and Munbaz her son.

The politics are obvious.

Monobazus I father of Izates is probably Zamaris of Bahtyra, making Jacimus of Bathyra the brother of Izates/Monobazus the twins, therefore son of Mary and James who is killed by "Paul" or Ananus ben Ananus.

Izates = Theudas = Ministry of Galilee Jesus. Izates means "Blessed one" (Ezad). Zamaris/Zimra means "Praiseworthy One" (same as Muhammed). The dyad of Muhammed/Ali and later Ali/Hussein directly parallel Zimra/Ezad. Even Hatra had Maren and Barmaren as central deities, to reflect the Syrian triad. Joseph and Mary (per Joseph and Asenath), with their son Horus AKA Izates.

The relevance of Izates as a messiah comes in for the Babylonian Jews and their support of Osroes of Parthia during the Kitos War, who appears to be the son of Izates falsely remembered later as Sanatruk of Armenia.

Jesus would be an concept more closely embedded in the Alexandrian Jewish doctrine of a direct relationship with the heavenly high priest of the heavenly temple, bypassing the Jerusalem or other temples. He is invoked against the messianic Jewish sects (Ebionites). Paul's Jesus as a spiritual concept not an Earthly king. A product of the post Bar Kokhba reaction to Judaism.

Boarneges = Anileus and Asineus = Izates and Monobazus II. It's all overlapping and confused. Anileus being a weaver and Mary being a weaver are euphemisms for Helena of Adiabene being a Boethus, and therefore inheriting the "craft" AKA esoteric secrets of her father's priesthood. It's basic secret handshake stuff. Boethusians being the House of Onias AKA Beth Honiyyo or Bathineyah/Batanea/Bethany. The Judeo-Eygptian priesthood with a tradition dating to before any and all Hasmonean innovations.

We wonder at Philip and Herod II, Cleopatra of Jerusalem and Mariamne Boethus. Somehow wedged in the middle of the story between clearly established pieces but otherwise forgotten by history. Phillip at least seems to have been taken off the chess board in a manner entirely convenient to the ambitions of Herdo Antipas.

Or you know, continue to talk about illiterate fishermen innovating a unique religious system out of the blue particularly in 33 AD.
StephenGoranson
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by StephenGoranson »

In the conference, Dositheus and Mani were mentioned for comparison with historical Jesus.

In an earlier paper I suggested the Teacher of Righteousness, mentioned in Qumran texts, was identical with Judah the Essene, known from Josephus, and that his contemporaries included Alexander Jannaeus and his brother Absalom:

https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/jannaeus.pdf
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mlinssen
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by mlinssen »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:45 am In the conference, Dositheus and Mani were mentioned for comparison with historical Jesus.

In an earlier paper I suggested the Teacher of Righteousness, mentioned in Qumran texts, was identical with Judah the Essene, known from Josephus, and that his contemporaries included Alexander Jannaeus and his brother Absalom:

https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/jannaeus.pdf
Oh go on Stephen, what's your verdict?
While I like a few of the presenters and have forever changed my mind about Fredriksen, I didn't feel inclined after day 1 to attend any of the remainder.
The one guy claiming racism behind Markan Priority (I can't even be bothered to look up his name) was such an idiot making foolish claims only that it was quite shameful to have him aboard

Peter Head wasn't impressed either with the first day, don't know how much of a given that is or was
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
Publication Date: November 5, 2024

Image

Table of Contents

Preface
Abbreviations
Introduction. The Next Quest by James Crossley

Part 1: Rebuilding the Foundations
1. Reception History by Halvor Moxnes
2. Rewriting the History of Scholarship by Brandon Massey
3. Beyond the Jewish Jesus Debate by Adele Reinhartz
4. Biography by Helen K. Bond
5. Ancient Media by Rafael Rodríguez
6. Beyond What Is Behind by Chris Keith
7. Missing Pieces by Mark Goodacre
8. Material and Visual Culture by Joan Taylor
9. Religion, Visions, and Alternative Historicity by Deane Galbraith
10. Myth and Mythmaking by Stephen Young

Part 2: Beginnings of a Next Quest
11. The Late Latin Quest by Paula Fredriksen
12. Chartism and Forgotten Quests by James Crossley
13. Fame and Aura by Matthew G. Whitlock
14. Networks by John S. Kloppenborg
15. Scribal Galilee by Sarah E. Rollens
16. Synagogues by Anders Runesson
17. Armies and Soldiers by Christopher B. Zeichmann
18. Class Conflict by Robert J. Myles
19. Textiles, Sustenance, and Economy by Janelle Peters
20. City and Country by Robyn Faith Walsh
21. Galilee and Jerusalem by Tucker Samson Ferda
22. Race, Ethnicity, and Whiteness by Wongi Park
23. Born of a Doulē by Mitzi J. Smith
24. Body and Embodiment by Taylor G. Petrey
25. Sexuality by Amy-Jill Levine
26. Disability, Healings, Miracles by Meghan R. Henning
27. Spirit World by Giovanni B. Bazzana
28. Ritual Impurity by Matthew Thiessen
29. Apocalypticism and Millenarianism by James Crossley
30. Violence and Trauma by Nathan Shedd
31. Death and Martyrdom by Michael P. Barber
32. The Resurrection and Comparative Microhistory by Justin J. Meggitt
33. Whakapapa and Genealogy by Wayne Te Kaawa
34. Survival of Popular Movements by Nathan C. Johnson

Giuseppe
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by Giuseppe »

Does someone know if among the cited 'scholars' there is at least a proponent of a seditious Jesus?
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maryhelena
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by maryhelena »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:16 am Does someone know if among the cited 'scholars' there is at least a proponent of a seditious Jesus?
That question came to my mind also. Never fear - Bermejo Rubio is there in the background haunting their waking hours... Turn the other cheek Jesus is no challenge for a Jesus with fire in his belly....
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