zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by Giuseppe »

maryhelena wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:53 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:16 am Does someone know if among the cited 'scholars' there is at least a proponent of a seditious Jesus?
That question came to my mind also. Never fear - Bermejo Rubio is there in the background haunting their waking hours... Turn the other cheek Jesus is no challenge for a Jesus with fire in his belly....
the curious thing is that those 'scholars' are talking again and again about their pacifist Jesus by excluding virtually BR from their discussion, without knowing that only the seditious Jesus can reserve some difficulty to pure mythicism.
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maryhelena
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by maryhelena »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:11 am
maryhelena wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:53 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:16 am Does someone know if among the cited 'scholars' there is at least a proponent of a seditious Jesus?
That question came to my mind also. Never fear - Bermejo Rubio is there in the background haunting their waking hours... Turn the other cheek Jesus is no challenge for a Jesus with fire in his belly....
the curious thing is that those 'scholars' are talking again and again about their pacifist Jesus by excluding virtually BR from their discussion, without knowing that only the seditious Jesus can reserve some difficulty to pure mythicism.
Giuseppe, a seditious Jesus is a far greater challenge to Jesus historicists than to mythicists. Mythicists make no historical claims. Historicists do. Bermejo Rubio cannot identify a historical seditious Jesus during the time of Pilate and Tiberius. To find seditionists, either an individual or a group, he has to turn to Hasmonean history.

A literary composite gospel Jesus allows for various historical figures to be represented. (James Bond for instance).

As for the pacifist turn the other cheek Jesus..... complete nosence as a code by which to live on terra-firma. Indicating these words should not be taken literally. Now I think about it..... maybe Philo has contributed some philosophical musings to those gospel writers. After all, he did live in the time of Pilate and Tiberius....

Things look much more interesting when history is given its due... no searching with historicists for the supposed lost needle in a haystack or falling into some outer space black hole with Carrier type mythicists. .
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DCHindley
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by DCHindley »

Looking through Bermejo Rubio's newest book, I can follow his citations of authorities pretty well, and his interpretations of them, as they were all topics of discussion in the old Crosstalk2 (XTalk), Synoptic-l, Orion and IOUDAIOS e-mail lists, and have been topics of discussion at times on IIDB & FRDB, and even on BC&H, if only in digested form.

In fact, I will freely admit I have personally looked at a good many of these sources, and find his summaries of alternate positions pretty much as I remember them. No crazy twists or zig-zag patterns need be imagined. About the only thing I questioned was his heavy reliance on R. Horsley for his sociological perspectives, although he has not adopted Horsley's sociological explanations 100%. My opinion of Horsley is that he is trying to use sociology to rehabilitate the militaristic attributions in the NT, basically to explain them away.

However, I think both you (guiseppe) and you (maryhelena) are trying to blame B-R for not examining events outside of NT literature.

Mentions of disciples having swords, cutting off an earlobe (something that actually happened to HP Hyrcanus II when the Parthian backed Antigonus II, the son of Hyrcanus' brother Aristobulus II, captured him in Jerusalem), as well as his disciples having names and nicknames that seem to relate to Judean anti-Roman sentiment, are not meant to zero in on Jesus' actual or imagined place in the historical narrative. Just the fact that these things were associated with him in NT Gospels and Acts.

What you, giuseppe, need to do is develop the reasons to explain how these seemingly militaristic traditions came to be in the first place. I would recommend taking a really close look at the Marxist influenced hypotheses of Engels & K. Kautsky and even Kalthof, 1st, and digest what they are saying. Their hypotheses for the development of a Mythical Jesus Christ are rather well worked out, although their validity can be questioned (well, I do).

What you, maryhelena, need is to accept that someone can agree that there is a political Jesus out there somewhere, without feeling the need to react negatively to what he *should* have found (that that activity occurred in the time of Antigonus II). You can develop that idea, as you indicate you are doing, but you may have put too many eggs in one basket, and not happy that the basket got dropped, and just have to brush the disappointment aside.

BTW, mh, am sorry to misidentify you as "UK." My wife is half Irish, but I am of 100% English derivation, but I don't know much about the Irish experience. In US, we call US football (maybe because the beginning of the game commences with a kick to the ball) "football," UK or nearby country versions of Rugby (which is sometimes called "football" here because of the carrying/passing of the ball that resembles a US football) we usually just call "rugby," and any Soccer game (sometimes called "football" because of the kicking of a ball) we just call "soccer." If I mentioned "football" I would be thinking of Rugby, not that boring US version we know and love here. I would have said "soccer" if I meant that, although in some areas this is also called "football."

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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maryhelena
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Re: zoom conf. "Next Quest for the Historical Jesus"

Post by maryhelena »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:03 am
However, I think both you (guiseppe) and you (matyhelena) are trying to blame B-R with not examining events outside of NT literature.
Of course. Staying within the NT bubble won't get him a seditious Jesus in the time of Pilate and Tiberius. Seditious elements in the gospel story don't reflect the time of Pilate and Tiberius. Seditious ideology is simply to play down these elements.

Mentions of disciples having swords, cutting off an earlobe (something that actually happened to HP Hyrcanus II when the Parthian backed Antigonus II, the son of Hyrcanus' brother Aristobulus II, captured him in Jerusalem), as well as his disciples having names and nicknames that seem to relate to Judean anti-Roman sentiment, are not meant to zero in on Jesus' actual or imagined place in the historical narrative.
That's just an opinion, David....necessary of course if one upholds the idea of a historical Jesus in the time of Pilate and Tiberius. I don't hold that view so am free to look at other options. History is primary and high time Jesus historicists allowed its light to shine on the gospel story.

What you, maryhelena, need is to accept that someone can agree that there is a political Jesus out there somewhere, without feeling the need to react negatively to what he *should* have found (that that activity occurred in the time of Antigonus II). You can develop that idea, as you indicate you are doing, but you may have put too many eggs in one basket, and not happy that the basket got dropped, and just have to brush the disappointment aside.
Reacting negatively to Bermejo-Rubio ? The only negativity is that he remains within that gospel bubble......a bubble that is hindering his basic hypothesis...seditious elements within the gospel story..from moving research forward. My basket dropped ? David, a basket is not big enough to hold all the eggs I have..drop one or two and there are dozens more waiting to take their place!

BTW, mh, am sorry to misidentify you as "UK." My wife is half Irish, and I am of 100% English derivation, but I don't know much about the Irish experience. In US, we call US football (maybe because the beginning of the game commences with a kick to the ball) "football," UK or nearby country versions of Rugby (which is sometimes called "football" here because of the carrying/passing of the ball that resembles a US football) we usually just call "rugby," and any Soccer game (sometimes called "football" because of the kicking of a ball) we just call "soccer." If I mentioned "football" I would be thinking of Rugby, not that boring US version we know and love here. I would have said "soccer" if I meant that, although in some areas this is also called "football."

DCH
No worries....after all I do live in England and have put that on my profile.
Rugby.....in Dublin this afternoon, Ireland beat Italy 36 - 0. Sorry, Guiseppe.. ;) ..
.
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