Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

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Giuseppe
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Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Giuseppe »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:49 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:17 am
Tertullian objects to Marcion's reading and their own prophets (as distinct from and the prophets) This doesn't make sense unless Tertullian was convinced there was a version of the passage in Marcion.
Very interesting! If the prophets are killers of Jesus just as "the Jews", then there is a lot of sense in John 10.8
All that ever came before me [=Moses and prophets] are thieves and robbers

...which is the reason for the introduction, as retaliation, of "Bar-Abbas" as the thief and robber marcionite Son of Father.
Chris Hansen
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Chris Hansen »

You've misunderstood the passage. The prophets are not the killers. Paul is accusing his Jewish contemporaries of 'killing the Lord Jesus and their prophets". That does not mean he did not think Pilate had no involvement. This is just an argument from silence on a short passage. While I don't really care if Pilate was involved or not, the passage is not as definitive as you think. I think you should maybe downplay the usage of superlatives like this.

It has no relation to John 10:8.
rgprice
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by rgprice »

Seems like there is some missing context here, but if I understand this correctly, you are talking about Paul's complaint that the Jews killed their own prophets, just as they killed Jesus. But I don't see this as eliminating Pilate, just holding the Jews as responsible for the death of Jesus. But maybe I'm misunderstanding something.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Giuseppe »

I am remembered about Couchoud's claim that Marcion was the author of at least two of the 'Pauline' epistles.

So Bob Price:

To be fair, Couchoud has characterized Marcion's hypothetical epistolary efforts in such a way as not to entail Gospel-quoting: Ephesians as a mere commentary upon Colossians, a writing ignorant of Jesus-attributed teachings, need hardly introduce any of them. And if the goal of 2 Thessalonians was only to correct the hot-head eschatology of 1 Thessalonians, all Marcion need have done was to write what looks like a second version of 1 Thessalonians, differing only in this matter of de-apocalypticizing. As he intended to stick as close to the look and feel of the original, almost to the point of replacing it, in penning 2 Thessalonians Marcion might have had added reason to avoid any ostensible Jesus-teachings he might have known, since including them would make 2 Thessalonians seem needlessly different from its model, 1 Thessalonians.

(Thompson, Verenna, Is this not the carpenter?, p. 101)

So, if we have evidence of Marcion inventing ex novo 2 Thessalonians to correct 1 Thessalonians, then 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 may be marcionite in origin, as interpolation.

Which would give us added reason to believe that Pilate was absent in the Evangelion.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Giuseppe »

Think about the question in this way:
  • We have already the strange silence of Paul about Pilate.
  • We have Marcion interpolating 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, et voilà: even Marcion/"Paul" continues to be silent about Pilate, and precisely when he was referring to the death of an earthly Jesus
Double silence about Pilate.
Chris Hansen
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Chris Hansen »

Or... and here me out. We go with the much simpler and non-conspiratorial solution to this which is:

1 Thess 2:14-16 is authentic, hence why Marcion has it, and this whole Pilate business of yours is just blown out of the water from an argument from silence... which it is.

Pilate is silent about almost everything regarding Jesus, so that he is silent on Pilate isn't surprising. Especially since, if this is authentic, he principally blames his countrymen.

Also, checking BeDuhn's reconstruction, Pilate is mentioned numerous times in the remaining quotations of Marcion's evangelion. Far too many for them all to be interpolations.

This just seems really strenuous for no real reason.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Giuseppe »

Come on, Chris: 1 Thess 2:14-16 can't be genuine, because the verse "The wrath of God has come upon them at last" alludes to a political "wrath", materialized by Hadrian's legions destroying the last revolt. In Paul's (traditional) time, there was no echo of Judea going to be destroyed politically on a so large scale.

So Marcion wrote that the Jews crucified Jesus.

As to Pilate being mentioned in Luke, I don't see particular marcionite points in the Passion story, apart possibly the answer given by Jesus to Pilate: "you say so (that I are the king of Jews), I don't".
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by rgprice »

If Marcion's Gospel didn't mention Pilate, or at least have Pilate involved in the trail/execution, it seems like something that would have been explicitly called out by Tertullian, et al.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Giuseppe »

Well, Loisy claims that the false "Ignatius" interpolated Pilate in the Epistle to Trallians (originally a marcionite epistle), explicitly against Marcion.


Ecoutons encore Théophore (x):

Il est insensé de parler Jésus-Christ et de judaïser. Car le christianisme n'a pas cru au judaïsme, mais le judaïsme au christianisme, en qui tous les langues se sont réunies croyant en Dieu. Ainsi le christianisme n'a rien à voir avec le judaïsme; et par conséquent, ceux qui judaïsent, ce sont les chrétiens qui pactisent avec le judaïsme en retenant l'Ancien Testament.

Notre Théophore pouvait conclure (xi) «Je veux que vous ayez la certitude absolue de notre espérance, dont je souhaite qu'aucun de vous ne s'écarte.» Le rédacteur lui fait dire:

Je veux que vous ayez la certitude absolue de [la naissance, de la passion et de la résurrection advenues au temps du gouvernement de Ponce Pilate, réalisées vraiment et réellement par Jésus-Christ] notre espérance, dont je souhaite qu'aucun de vous ne s'écarte.

On reconnaît le rédacteur à sa gaucherie, à sa préoccupation de «la naissance», à son acharnement contre le docétisme. Au fond, il récite le symbole de foi que l'Eglise catholique a précisé contre Marcion, et c'est pourquoi il n'oublie pas Ponce Pilate. Même cas dans la lettre aux Tralliens (ix):

Soyez donc sourds lorsque quelqu'un vous parlera en dehors de Jésus-Christ [qui est de la race de David, qui est de Marie, qui vraiment est né, a mangé et a bu, vraiment a été persécuté sous Ponce Pilate, vraiment a été crucifié et est mort, à la vue des (êtres) célestes, terrestres et infernaux ; qui vraiment aussi est ressuscité des morts, son Père l'ayant ressuscité; aussi à son image, nous qui croyons en Lui, son Père nous ressuscitera en Christ Jésus] hors de qui nous n'avons pas de vie véritable.


(Remarques sur la Littérature Épistolaire du Nouveau Testament, p 464, my bold)
https://archive.org/details/MN41487ucmf ... r&q=ignace
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Giuseppe
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Giuseppe »

Always Loisy reiterates the point of the use of Pilate against Marcion in p. 166:

La «belle confession» du Christ martyr est assurément celle dont parlent les Evangiles, mais ce n'est pas directement des Evangiles que vient la mention de Ponce-Pilate, elle vient d'une formée déjà officielle de la profession de foi chrétienne, dont notre texte n'est que la paraphrase très consciente. Que cette profession de foi ait été antimarcionite dans son intention principale, la façon même dont elle est ici présentée invite à l'admettre. C'est contre Marcion qu'est affirmée si hautement l'identité du seul Dieu éternel, maître de tout, et du Dieu créateur du monde et Père de Jésus-Christ. Nous sommes donc ici au plus fort de la réaction antimarcionite, entre 150 et 170.

You don't mention Pilate against Marcion unless Marcion had some problem with Pilate.
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