Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

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Chris Hansen
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Chris Hansen »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:24 am Come on, Chris: 1 Thess 2:14-16 can't be genuine, because the verse "The wrath of God has come upon them at last" alludes to a political "wrath", materialized by Hadrian's legions destroying the last revolt. In Paul's (traditional) time, there was no echo of Judea going to be destroyed politically on a so large scale.

So Marcion wrote that the Jews crucified Jesus.

As to Pilate being mentioned in Luke, I don't see particular marcionite points in the Passion story, apart possibly the answer given by Jesus to Pilate: "you say so (that I are the king of Jews), I don't".
Or it alludes to the destruction of the Temple. Or it alludes to the persecution under Claudius mentioned by Suetonius. Or the massacre in Egypt.

You know, a vague comment that could refer to any number of things.

You keep making these claims as though definitive about vague passages that do not intimate at all. There is no intimation in this passage of Judea being destroyed, unless you really read into what "wrath" means. It could also indicate Paul's eschatological vision. And at best, even if we assume that the "the wrath of God has come upon them at last" is something he couldn't possibly say... it only means that "the wrath of God has come upon them at last" is an interpolation. Not the whole of 2:14-16. So, no.

Like partial interpolation is an actual option here. You just seem to jump to the most radical conclusions on very small shreds of evidence here. It is your conjecture that this refers to "political" wrath.

The more your theories require conjectured interpolations to work, the less likely them become, imo. Call that Chrissy's Law of Interpolations if you will lol.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Giuseppe »

The real risk of extinction for Jews was not Claudius, nor Titus, but Hadrian, with his Aelia Capitolina and the ban of circumcision.

At any case, what do you think about Loisy pointing out emphatically the anti-marcionite character of the following "pauline" passage, where Pilate is mentioned:

In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler,the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,whom no one has seen or can see.

(1 Timothy 6:13-16)

Why is Marcion neutralized by a false Paul mentioning: Pilate?
Chris Hansen
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by Chris Hansen »

Paul doesn't say anything about extinction... again, this is you reading more into the text than what is there.

I don't think 1 Timothy was written by Paul at all. I have very little interest in the deutero-Pauline epistles. That said, I really don't think it is anti-Marcionite. I'm not sure what about this is so "anti-Marcionite" in character. It seems "anti-Marcionite" more and more just seems to be a catchphrase for someone wishing to conjecture an emendation in these letters.
ABuddhist
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Re: Definitive evidence that Marcion knew no Pilate at all

Post by ABuddhist »

Chris Hansen wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:07 pm It seems "anti-Marcionite" more and more just seems to be a catchphrase for someone wishing to conjecture an emendation in these letters.
Does this apply to mainstream biblical scholarship also?
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