All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by davidmartin »

thanks CW i expect you got a view on the Nazarene sect statements about the houses of pharisees and Nephtali (from Jerome)?

PS I'm working on an idea the sequence of gospels might have been Luke, John, Mark then Matthew. it's crazy
ie proto-Luke was first but got seriously re-edited over time, John is responding to this not Mark, then Mark captures a snapshot of Luke at the time it was written, finally Matthew
It's curious how the old Syriac Luke has many quotes from Mark and Matthew in it, what if those really were once there prior to Mark and Matthew.
i wondered also, what if proto-Luke had no parables originally and that's why John doesn't, what if Mark was the first to include them then they got re-edited back into Luke - because originally Luke to match a Pauline derived gospel Jesus didn't need/have any teachings he just did miracles and stuff
Charles Wilson
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by Charles Wilson »

dm --

Go for it.

Luke has (at least) 2 good leads:

Luke 2: 36 - 38 (RSV):

[36] And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity,
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.
[38] And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks to God, and spoke of him to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

To understand this you must first see the "Two Sets" of Stories involving the Coup attempts. The first occurs as Herod lies dying in Jericho in 4 BCE. He has ordered the Big People arrested and will expect them to be murdered soon. The second Coup Attempt occurs 12 years later - 2 full Mishmarot Rotations later (See: Eisenman and Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered) - when a "duplicate" Passover occurs in 9 CE. [Note: See also the 2 Crucifixion Days, the second in GJohn. Apologetix attempts to smooth this over. There were, on this view, 2 Crucifixions indeed! (One real, the other Symbolic)]

The 12 Year Motif occurs all over Mark and the interesting thing is to correctly align the Passages with the correct dates:

Mark 5: 21 - 24, 39 - 42 (RSV):

[21] And when Jesus had crossed again in the boat to the other side, a great crowd gathered about him; and he was beside the sea.
[22] Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, he fell at his feet,
[23] and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live."
[24] And he went with him.
***
[39] And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping."
[40] And they laughed at him. But he put them all outside, and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was.
[41] Taking her by the hand he said to her, "Tal'itha cu'mi"; which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.

"She was twelve years of age..."

Jairus is asking the Priest to make one more run at the Romans and the Herodians. The Priest is telling everyone that the Movement is not dead but sleeping. He knows he is going to his death.

The Movement is tied to the Priesthood and to Alexander Jannaeus. As the Priest readies himself to go to Jerusalem, he tells Stories. Some of them are dated to 8 CE, a few to 9.

Luke 9: 51 - 62 (RSV):

[51] When the days drew near for him to be received up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem.
[52] And he sent messengers ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him;
[53] but the people would not receive him, because his face was set toward Jerusalem.
[54] And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said, "Lord, do you want us to bid fire come down from heaven and consume them?"
[55] But he turned and rebuked them.
[56] And they went on to another village.
[57] As they were going along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go."
[58] And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head."
[59] To another he said, "Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
[60] But he said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
[61] Another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home."
[62] Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

James and John appear here to be children, reasoning as children do. No one will follow the Priest to Jerusalem. To do so is to face death.

Hannah the Prophetess was a virgin when she married and lived to 84. Subtract 84 from 8/9 CE and what do you get? 76 BC.
What happened in 76 BCE?
Jannaeus dies and his wife Ascends the Throne.
This shows that Josephus is false here or has been tampered with. He nowhere states that "Salome Alexandra", wife of Jannaeus' brother, actually married Jannaeus in a Leverite Ceremony. Salome, according to Luke, was virginal, highly unlikely if she was married to Jannaeus' brother first.

Where was this material found that was used in Luke? Who wrote it?
***
Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

We do have another testimony to this Passage in Luke:

Josephus, War..., 2, 1, 3:

"At these clamors Archelaus was provoked, but restrained himself from taking vengeance on the authors, on account of the haste he was in of going to Rome, as fearing lest, upon his making war on the multitude, such an action might detain him at home. Accordingly, he made trial to quiet the innovators by persuasion, rather than by force, and sent his general in a private way to them, and by him exhorted them to be quiet. But the seditious threw stones at him, and drove him away, as he came into the temple, and before he could say any thing to them. The like treatment they showed to others, who came to them after him, many of which were sent by Archelaus, in order to reduce them to sobriety, and these answered still on all occasions after a passionate manner..."

I always ask that you perform an experiment here. Get a friend and a good sized rock and act out the scene
After your friend says, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples", hold the rock under his nose and, with anger, shout,

"I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

This could well be from the floor of the Temple, at the Coup of 4 BCE.

Where was this material found that was used in Luke? Who wrote it?

Luke is much more interesting than appears at first glance.

Best to you,

CW
andrewcriddle
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by andrewcriddle »

FWIW kurios (Lord) as a title of respect is well known in koine Greek (the Greek of the papyri) See for example https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/ ... frontcover

Andrew Criddle
Charles Wilson
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by Charles Wilson »

andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:56 am FWIW kurios (Lord) as a title of respect is well known in koine Greek (the Greek of the papyri)

Andrew Criddle
Strong's H563 ("lamb") and H564 ("Sixteenth Mishmarot Group"):

" אִמַּר "

The Word Play is completely lost in the Greek, as you would expect if the Greek was based on an underlying Semitic/Hebrew Document.
Again, Pettinato, Ebla, explores Ebalite animal-name paired with god-name.

" 'nmmr-Ha'ad " => "Panther-of-Ha'ad" => Nimrod.

A short step to " 'mmr-Yah" => "Lamb-of Yah"

"Behold the Lamb-of-God"

What's puzzling to me is "Mar-Yah" - which fits perfectly - and "Behold the Lamb-of-Yah", which is separated and Greekified. One purpose of John is to reinstate human sacrifice, building around "Jesus" as the Passover Lamb. Something was known here in the Roman Court as various Greekies authored John with anarthrous/arthrous backgrounds (See: Teeple).

How? Who knew?

Thnx, AC.

CW
davidmartin
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Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by davidmartin »

The odes might be a case in point, heavy use of Marya throughout for God and the messiah
But also the plural Maryahoon 'they surrounded me like mad dogs that without knowledge attack their masters'
'Masters' is ܡܪܝܗܘܢ MRYHOON
I suppose it should better be translated 'attack their lords', why not it's the same word

So the Odist had no problem at all using the same word for God as dog owners!
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