All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

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davidmartin
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All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by davidmartin »

Just for interest

Count of "The Lord" to mean Jesus, with number in brackets to mean God. Add them together for total count of "The Lord" appearing in text

Matthew - 0 (19)
Mark - 2 (9) - (Both in long ending only)
Luke - 16 (36)
John - 9 (3)

If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you doing this?’ say, ‘The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.’
Note - I don't count this as a 'Jesus' as it's ambiguous, God gets the count here

The count be refined to include 'Lord' on its own, not 'the Lord' for completeness
I used NIV but it probably doesn't matter in this case

Thoughts?

Matthew - no surprise? Jewish orientated, reticence to name Jesus as Lord?
Luke - no surprise if connected to Acts/Paul? (But did proto-Luke have this?)
Mark - basically it's 0, same reasons as Matthew?
John - The opposite of Matthew/Mark. The Lord is only ever Jesus except in scripture quotes
Charles Wilson
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by Charles Wilson »

https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/maryayhwh.html
https://everlastinggoodnewsofyahweh.info/MarYah.html

Scholarly value here is up to you but I still see this as a Word Play on "Immar-Yah", "Lamb of Yah" going back to Sumer.
"immar-Yah" becomes "Immer-Yah".

CW

[Edit Note: Sometimes I leave out too much. The Thesis is that there was an "Original" Semitic Story, dismembered and rewritten into the NT Stories by the Romans. "Immar" (Lamb) is the same word as "Immer" (The sixteenth Mishmarot Service Group). A Coup against Herod is centered in the Mishmarot Group Immer. John is of Bilgah, the created "Jesus" character is actually a Priest of Immer.

Herod is in Jericho as this Passover (4 BCE) comes up. He dies a weekish too soon. Archelaus takes over and 3000+ are killed at the Temple.
And so on.

This is what is rewritten by the Romans.]
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
davidmartin
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by davidmartin »

CW, i'm sure all can agree, it gets complicated fast!

I did some further analysis of Matthew
Although Jesus is never 'the Lord', 'Lord' is used to address him


On 28 occasions 'Lord' is used for God and not Jesus

I counted the 'Lord, Lord' of 25:11 as one only
And the 2 other Lords in this area eg 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?' as meaning God. Maybe some might argue the point but Jesus doesn't appear to be speaking of himself?

But I'm excluding these 2 entirely from both counts
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials...
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath



Now for the occasions Lord means Jesus - I make it 21. Again all 'Lord, Lord' counts as one

Some comments on these:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name...

I counted these (as 2 total), not sure if the double Lord changes anything, to perhaps mean 'master' but I count it as meaning Jesus

Of these 21 a pattern seems to emerge

The use of Lord to address Jesus is in 2 blocks (with 1 straggler). This can't be coincidence?

Prior to 7:21 Lord is never used to address Jesus
Lord is used to address Jesus from 7:21 to 9:28 (8 times) - in conversation with the public/healing requests and the stormy boat ride

Then from 14:28 to 20:33 Lord is so used 12 times - walking on water, canaanite woman, healing requests, transfiguration

The straggler is 26:22, the last supper - "Surely you don't mean me Lord?"


Maybe something could explain why this usage of Lord is confined to 2 blocks that would make it unremarkable but assuming not...
Did Matthew incorporate material from another source at these points? Luke, Mark?
That's what it looks like superficially which might imply a proto-Matthew never referring to Jesus as Lord. Or alternatively was another form of address originally present that got changed to 'Lord' (eg Rabbi, Jesus, etc) (do the public ever call him Jesus in any gospel?!)

But I'm not well up to speed on all the hypothesis around the synoptics

Update: Doing the same for Mark was quick and I'm not counting the later long ending
Only 1 occasion is Lord used to address Jesus (with 13 referring to God)
7:28 “Lord,” she replied, “even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.”
The canaanite woman, it would be her wouldn't it.
So Mark doesn't care for this form of address

I don't want to do the same for Luke there's over 70 Lord's. Would be interesting to check the matching verses in Matthew though

For John it's very different
Jesus himself gives the nod that he is Lord “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Accordingly there's a whopping 34 uses of Lord for Jesus, albeit 11 of these in the ending portion that I think might be later addition

For uses of Lord for God there's only 4 all scripture quotes, but the first is almost Jesus in the context. Redactors love adding scripture, was it 0?
1:23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”
12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”
12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”


What this all mean?
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MrMacSon
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by MrMacSon »

There's a preponderance of places in the LXX/Septuagint where YHWH in the Hebrew texts are replaced with Lord

Paul continues the trend (where he uses LXX versions of the Pentateuch +/- more than the five Hebrew books in it, I think: I'd need to check)

Perhaps the LXX +/- Paul is where the gospel authors / editors / redactors got the trope/theme from
schillingklaus
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by schillingklaus »

Jesus is Gods in most cases, so the distinction is pointless.
rgprice
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by rgprice »

This is complicated a bit by the fact that it was not unusual to call people lord. For example the term is frequently used in The Aeneid by comparison. Examples:

The gods are just, and will revenge our cause.
Aeneas was our prince: a juster lord,
Or nobler warrior, never drew a sword;
Observant of the right, religious of his word.


These troops, to view the tears thou shedd'st in vain?
Go, friends, this message to your lord relate:
Tell him, that, if I bear my bitter fate,
And, after Pallas' death, live ling'ring on,
'T is to behold his vengeance for my son.

Mark does have:

Mark 5:
18 And as He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed was begging Him that he might accompany Him. 19 And He did not let him, but He *said to him, “Go home to your people and report to them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He had mercy on you.”


Mark 11:
11 And as they *approached Jerusalem, at Bethphage and Bethany, near the Mount of Olives, He *sent two of His disciples, 2 and *said to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately as you enter it you will find a colt tied there, on which no one has ever sat; untie it and bring it here. 3 And if anyone says to you, ‘Why are you doing this?’ say, ‘The Lord has need of it’; and immediately he will send it back here.”

Of course the Pauline letter's make a clear distinction:

1 Gal 1, 1 Cor 1, 2 Cor 1, Philemon 1, Romans 1: "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,"

1 Cor 1:1 "To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:"

Of course Paul calls Jesus "the Lord" many, many times, but it is clear that there is a distinction between "God the Father" and "the Lord" his son.

The distinction you raise between John and the others is what I find most interesting. In John Lord always referrers to Jesus (and I think the scripture quotes are used in a way to imply that they refer to Jesus also). This actually is closer to how lord is used in the Pauline letters.

Of course John also clearly has Gnostic elements, and versions of John were heavily used by Gnostics, as were Paul's letters. So I don't think this is a coincidence. I haven't done an analysis of the scenes in John to see if they are all unique to John or if some overlap with the Synoptics, but that could be intersting.
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mlinssen
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by mlinssen »

rgprice wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:08 am This is complicated a bit by the fact that it was not unusual to call people lord. For example the term is frequently used in The Aeneid by comparison. Examples:

The gods are just, and will revenge our cause.
Aeneas was our prince: a juster lord,
Or nobler warrior, never drew a sword;
Observant of the right, religious of his word.


These troops, to view the tears thou shedd'st in vain?
Go, friends, this message to your lord relate:
Tell him, that, if I bear my bitter fate,
And, after Pallas' death, live ling'ring on,
'T is to behold his vengeance for my son.

Mark does have:

Mark 5:
18 And as He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed was begging Him that he might accompany Him. 19 And He did not let him, but He *said to him, “Go home to your people and report to them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He had mercy on you.”


Mark 11:
11 And as they *approached Jerusalem, at Bethphage and Bethany, near the Mount of Olives, He *sent two of His disciples, 2 and *said to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately as you enter it you will find a colt tied there, on which no one has ever sat; untie it and bring it here. 3 And if anyone says to you, ‘Why are you doing this?’ say, ‘The Lord has need of it’; and immediately he will send it back here.”

Of course the Pauline letter's make a clear distinction:

1 Gal 1, 1 Cor 1, 2 Cor 1, Philemon 1, Romans 1: "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,"

1 Cor 1:1 "To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:"

Of course Paul calls Jesus "the Lord" many, many times, but it is clear that there is a distinction between "God the Father" and "the Lord" his son.

The distinction you raise between John and the others is what I find most interesting. In John Lord always referrers to Jesus (and I think the scripture quotes are used in a way to imply that they refer to Jesus also). This actually is closer to how lord is used in the Pauline letters.

Of course John also clearly has Gnostic elements, and versions of John were heavily used by Gnostics, as were Paul's letters. So I don't think this is a coincidence. I haven't done an analysis of the scenes in John to see if they are all unique to John or if some overlap with the Synoptics, but that could be intersting.
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... card%3D520

Postquam introgressi et coram data copia fandi,
maxumus Ilioneus placido sic pectore coepit:
“O Regina, novam cui condere Iuppiter urbem
iustitiaque dedit gentis frenare superbas,
Troes te miseri, ventis maria omnia vecti,
525
oramus, prohibe infandos a navibus ignis,
parce pio generi, et propius res aspice nostras.
Non nos aut ferro Libycos populare Penatis
venimus, aut raptas ad litora vertere praedas;
non ea vis animo, nec tanta superbia victis.
530
Est locus, Hesperiam Grai cognomine dicunt,
terra antiqua, potens armis atque ubere glaebae;
Oenotri coluere viri; nunc fama minores
Italiam dixisse ducis de nomine gentem.
Hic cursus fuit:
535
cum subito adsurgens fluctu nimbosus Orion
in vada caeca tulit, penitusque procacibus austris
perque undas, superante salo, perque invia saxa
dispulit; huc pauci vestris adnavimus oris.
Quod genus hoc hominum? Quaeve hunc tam barbara morem
540
permittit patria? Hospitio prohibemur harenae;
bella cient, primaque vetant consistere terra.
Si genus humanum et mortalia temnitis arma
at sperate deos memores fandi atque nefandi.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... card%3D544

Rex erat Aeneas nobis, quo iustior alter,
545
nec pietate fuit, nec bello maior et armis.
Quem si fata virum servant, si vescitur aura
aetheria, neque adhuc crudelibus occubat umbris,
non metus; officio nec te certasse priorem
paeniteat. Sunt et Siculis regionibus urbes
550
arvaque, Troianoque a sanguine clarus Acestes.
Quassatam ventis liceat subducere classem,
et silvis aptare trabes et stringere remos:
si datur Italiam, sociis et rege recepto,
tendere, ut Italiam laeti Latiumque petamus;
555
sin absumpta salus, et te, pater optume Teucrum,
pontus habet Lybiae, nec spes iam restat Iuli,
at freta Sicaniae saltem sedesque paratas,
unde huc advecti, regemque petamus Acesten.”
Talibus Ilioneus; cuncti simul ore fremebant
560
Dardanidae.

You really are an incredible amateur aren't you?
Comparing Greek to Latin regardless?
Obviously your are completely unaware of the original text which doesn't even *have* the word lord, but don't let that hinder your childish assumptions and opinions

You're so exemplary for the average mediocre scholarship of biblical academic, Geoff Price. Your Mark 11:11 actually is Matthew 21:1 - bravo
Charles Wilson
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by Charles Wilson »

davidmartin wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:27 pm CW, i'm sure all can agree, it gets complicated fast!
Very, very fast!
For John it's very different
Jesus himself gives the nod that he is Lord “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.

Which is why John has the "oddest" use of "Lord" - "marya" is expanded. Did the Roman Schools know this? Or is this Semitic usage given by a Zakkai after the Fall of the Temple?

John 1: 29 (RSV):

[29] The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

"Behold the Lamb of God..."

CW
davidmartin
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by davidmartin »

what is this odd usage of marya? i've heard about it, so far it hasn't clicked what it is

ah "Mark 5:
18 And as He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed was begging Him that he might accompany Him. 19 And He did not let him, but He *said to him, “Go home to your people and report to them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He had mercy on you.”"
had that as a God reference. is not clear Jesus is referring to himself but more like they would think of God here in normal biblical style. also the messianic secret might come into it for mark's case
Charles Wilson
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Re: All the times Jesus is called "The Lord" in the gospels

Post by Charles Wilson »

This is an extremely important section. I won't examine the entire section but there are some points that follow The Pattern: There are words that are "Odd and Unusual" that point to the Original Story.

Mark 5: Various (RSV):

[9] And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He replied, "My name is Legion; for we are many."

The previous verses tell of the Lunatic. He lives in the tombs - His Glory is seen looking back. When he strikes back, he bruises himself.
He is possessed by LEGION. The Roman clue is accurate.

[15] And they came to Jesus, and saw the demoniac sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, the man who had had the legion; and they were afraid.

The Lunatic is CLOTHED and IN HIS RIGHT MIND.

One of the Major Stories of the OT is the establishment of the Priesthood and the clothes they wear.

[18] And as he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons begged him that he might be with him.
[19] But he refused, and said to him, "Go home to your friends, and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you."
[20] And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decap'olis how much Jesus had done for him; and all men marveled.

There is a culture war going on. The Decapolis is a Greek Community, a coalition of cities with antagonisms to the Jews.

The Boat is not a literal boat. It is Antonia (See descriptions in Josephus) and it is where the Priests stay when they rotate into Jerusalem for their week of Mishmarot service.

This does not point to a fictitious "Jesus". It points to a Mishmarot Priest. A Priest from the Mishmarot Group "Immer". The Word Play depends on the identical word for "Lamb".

https://worthy.bible/online-bible-study/strongs/h563
https://worthy.bible/online-bible-study/strongs/h564

John 21: 15 (RSV):

[15] When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

Revelation 5: 6, in part, 12 - 13 (RSV):

[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain

[12] saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
[13] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"

There are many references to "Lamb" in Revelation and they involve the Coup of 4 BCE. They tell of Jannaeus and the Ascension of his (real) wife Salome (not Alexandra).

I could go on and on and on...

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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