Gal 1:15-16, 1:18-19 and Gal 2:1
But when he who had set me apart before I was born and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles...
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. But, belonging to the apostles, I discerned no qualitatively different one (ἕτερον, i.e. preaching a qualitatively different ἕτερον Gospel) except James the Lord’s (flesh and blood) brother.... Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me.
2 Cor 12:1-2 and 2 Cor 12:7
I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. ...
Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to strike me with the fist (κολαφίζῃ)—to keep me from exalting myself!
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Re: "fourteen years" after what?
The pivotal event was getting hit by James the Lord's brother's fist
The fourteen year interval was between going to Jerusalem (seeing James the Lord's brother/getting struck with the fist by a messenger of Satan) and returning again to Jerusalem.
An enthusiastic report of a third heaven/paradise revelation (one of multiple great revelations) is what earned Paul his punch with a fist by James the Lord's brother to keep him from exalting himself. After that Paul learned to boast in weakness instead.
"Fourteen years" after what? (Gal 2:1 and 2 Cor 12:1)
"Fourteen years" after what? (Gal 2:1 and 2 Cor 12:1)
Last edited by gryan on Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:51 am, edited 11 times in total.
Re: after fourteen years/fourteen years ago
In the proposed chronology, the two Arabia mentions fit better with Acts:gryan wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:18 am Gal 1:18-19 and Gal 2:1
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me.
2 Cor 12:1-2 and 2 Cor 12:7
I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. ...
Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to strike me with the fist—to keep me from exalting myself!
New chronological hypothesis: The pivotal event was getting hit by James the Lord's brother's fist
The fourteen year interval was between going to Jerusalem (seeing James the Lord's brother/getting struck with the fist by a messenger of Satan) and returning again to Jerusalem.
An enthusiastic report of a third heaven/paradise revelation (one of multiple great revelations) is what earned Paul his punch with a fist by James the Lord's brother to keep him from exalting himself. After that Paul learned to boast in weakness instead.
After his initial revelation, Paul immediately returned back to Damascus, Arabia.
Then, after three years, he escaped in a basket as both 2 Cor 11 and Acts 9 indicate.
From Damascus, he went to Jerusalem, bragged about many great revelations and James the Lord's brother punched him with a fist.
Last edited by gryan on Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: after fourteen years/fourteen years ago
For Paul, Satan is still functioning to carry out the assigned tasks/duties that God appointed to him, as first outlined in the book of Job. As Paul envisions the "bigger picture" this does not appear to be a negative assessment of Satan's assigned duties, and the loyalty by which he performs them, but rather the opposite. Satan is making Paul a better servant of God. Just as for Job.
Re: after fourteen years/fourteen years ago
Agreedlsayre wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:35 am For Paul, Satan is still functioning to carry out the assigned tasks/duties that God appointed to him, as first outlined in the book of Job. As Paul envisions the "bigger picture" this does not appear to be a negative assessment of Satan's assigned duties, and the loyalty by which he performs them, but rather the opposite. Satan is making Paul a better servant of God. Just as for Job.
Re: "Fourteen years" after what? Gal 2:1 and 2 Cor 12:1
RE: kolaphizó (to strike with the fist)
1 Peter 2:20 has this wisdom on getting a beating with the fist
"But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating with the fist (κολαφιζόμενοι) for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."
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If Paul suffered a punch with the fist for bragging too much about extraordinary revelations, then it was no great thing to endure it. He needed to learn a lesson.
1 Peter 2:20 has this wisdom on getting a beating with the fist
"But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating with the fist (κολαφιζόμενοι) for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."
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If Paul suffered a punch with the fist for bragging too much about extraordinary revelations, then it was no great thing to endure it. He needed to learn a lesson.
Last edited by gryan on Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Fourteen years" after what? Gal 2:1 and 2 Cor 12:1
We discussed this partially on another thread, but what do you think that Paul beseeched God three times for in that context?
2 Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Re: "Fourteen years" after what? Gal 2:1 and 2 Cor 12:1
RE: "I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me"
I'm not very sure.
In this reading, I'm hearing "I besought the Lord thrice" as happening over a long time, and not just three times literally. Thrice is symbolic of repeatedly. When Paul asked for a private meeting with the recognized pillars (James the pillar was the son of Alphaeus, not "the Lord's brother"), it was private because of his request to meet without James the Lord's brother present. But then the false brothers came, and they represented James the Lord's brother. Later in Antioch, the influence of "some from James [the Lord's brother]" was spreading via Peter even to Barnabas. Again Paul might have asked God to take him away, i.e. take his influence away. And then with the Galatians, Paul wishes the troublemakers would cut themselves off, which I take to mean cut themselves off socially. I think the troublemakers in Galatia knew of and probably came from James the Lord's brother
But then, how much time passed between the punch with a fist and the "my power is made perfect in weakness" revelation? I suspect that it was a one-time insight which took time to integrate. At the 14 year point in 2 Cor 10-12 Paul was very explicitly boasting in weakness. But how long had he been talking like that? I doubt that there was fully 14 years of boasting in weakness. Maybe it was around the 14 year point that he learned to boast in weakness. He says he went to Jerusalem "because of a revelation". Maybe that was the "power in weakness" revelation, and it convinced him that he should go there and boast in weakness (preferably without James the Lord's brother present).
I'm not very sure.
In this reading, I'm hearing "I besought the Lord thrice" as happening over a long time, and not just three times literally. Thrice is symbolic of repeatedly. When Paul asked for a private meeting with the recognized pillars (James the pillar was the son of Alphaeus, not "the Lord's brother"), it was private because of his request to meet without James the Lord's brother present. But then the false brothers came, and they represented James the Lord's brother. Later in Antioch, the influence of "some from James [the Lord's brother]" was spreading via Peter even to Barnabas. Again Paul might have asked God to take him away, i.e. take his influence away. And then with the Galatians, Paul wishes the troublemakers would cut themselves off, which I take to mean cut themselves off socially. I think the troublemakers in Galatia knew of and probably came from James the Lord's brother
But then, how much time passed between the punch with a fist and the "my power is made perfect in weakness" revelation? I suspect that it was a one-time insight which took time to integrate. At the 14 year point in 2 Cor 10-12 Paul was very explicitly boasting in weakness. But how long had he been talking like that? I doubt that there was fully 14 years of boasting in weakness. Maybe it was around the 14 year point that he learned to boast in weakness. He says he went to Jerusalem "because of a revelation". Maybe that was the "power in weakness" revelation, and it convinced him that he should go there and boast in weakness (preferably without James the Lord's brother present).
Re: "Fourteen years" after what? (Gal 2:1 and 2 Cor 12:1)
Re: kolaphizó: to strike with the fist
Paul says 1 Cor 4:11 that he experienced being "we are struck with the fist (κολαφιζόμεθα)":
"To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are struck with the fist (κολαφιζόμεθα), we are homeless."
This adds weight to the argument that Paul was speaking of the "thorn in the flesh" as a human adversary who literally struck him with a fist.
Paul says 1 Cor 4:11 that he experienced being "we are struck with the fist (κολαφιζόμεθα)":
"To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are struck with the fist (κολαφιζόμεθα), we are homeless."
This adds weight to the argument that Paul was speaking of the "thorn in the flesh" as a human adversary who literally struck him with a fist.
Re: "Fourteen years" after what? (Gal 2:1 and 2 Cor 12:1)
Re: kolaphizó: to strike with the fist in Mark and Matthew
Mark 14:61-65
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “Why do we need any more witnesses? 64You have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?”
And they all condemned Him as deserving of death.
65Then some of them began to spit on Him. They blindfolded Him,
struck Him with their fists, and said to Him, “Prophesy!”
And the officers received Him with slaps in His face.
Matthew 26:63-67
Then the high priest said to Him, “I charge You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerj and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “He has blasphemed! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?”
“He deserves to die,” they answered.
67Then they spit in His face and struck Him with fists (ἐκολάφισαν).
Others slapped Him and said, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who hit You?”
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In the Gospels, "striking with the fist" happens when one person makes a "Christ" claim that the other finds deeply offensive.
Supposing Paul said, "God revealed his son, Jesus, the Christ, in me" and "I know a man in Christ... caught up to the Paradise", I can imagine James the Lord's brother finding that deeply offensive, enough so to strike him with the fist. I can also imagine Cephas/Peter not defending Paul, but rather advising him to take it without fighting back. viewtopic.php?p=139213#p139213
Mark 14:61-65
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “Why do we need any more witnesses? 64You have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?”
And they all condemned Him as deserving of death.
65Then some of them began to spit on Him. They blindfolded Him,
struck Him with their fists, and said to Him, “Prophesy!”
And the officers received Him with slaps in His face.
Matthew 26:63-67
Then the high priest said to Him, “I charge You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerj and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “He has blasphemed! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?”
“He deserves to die,” they answered.
67Then they spit in His face and struck Him with fists (ἐκολάφισαν).
Others slapped Him and said, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who hit You?”
-------------
In the Gospels, "striking with the fist" happens when one person makes a "Christ" claim that the other finds deeply offensive.
Supposing Paul said, "God revealed his son, Jesus, the Christ, in me" and "I know a man in Christ... caught up to the Paradise", I can imagine James the Lord's brother finding that deeply offensive, enough so to strike him with the fist. I can also imagine Cephas/Peter not defending Paul, but rather advising him to take it without fighting back. viewtopic.php?p=139213#p139213
Re: "Fourteen years" after what? (Gal 2:1 and 2 Cor 12:1)
Re: kolaphizó: to strike with the fist
From a derivative of the base of kolazo
kolazó: to chastise
Original Word: κολάζω
κολαζο: present passive participle κολαζόμενος; 1 aorist middle sub. junc. 3 person plural κολάσωνται; (κόλος lopped); in Greek writings:
1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.
2. to check, curb, restrain.
3. to chastise, correct, punish:
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That fits. James the Lord's brother was disciplining (lording it over) the newcomer, Paul, to keep him from being conceited.
From a derivative of the base of kolazo
kolazó: to chastise
Original Word: κολάζω
κολαζο: present passive participle κολαζόμενος; 1 aorist middle sub. junc. 3 person plural κολάσωνται; (κόλος lopped); in Greek writings:
1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.
2. to check, curb, restrain.
3. to chastise, correct, punish:
----------------------
That fits. James the Lord's brother was disciplining (lording it over) the newcomer, Paul, to keep him from being conceited.