Paul's episode of blindness, and being caught up into Paradise

[lsayre]

Were Paul's blinding visitation by Jesus during a journey to Damascus, and Paul's Heavenly Ascension event, one and the same event?

[lsayre]

And more speculatively, did the Christ come upon Paul during the process, as it had earlier come upon Jesus (in the form of a dove). Paul boasted of bearing the marks...

[Jair]

And more speculatively, did the Christ come upon Paul during the process, as it had earlier come upon Jesus (in the form of a dove). Paul boasted of bearing the marks...

I’m intrigued. Can you point to the passages regarding the boasting of the marks? I want to take a look.

[GakuseiDon]

I’m intrigued. Can you point to the passages regarding the boasting of the marks? I want to take a look.

Gal 6:

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.
18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

[GakuseiDon]

Were Paul's blinding visitation by Jesus during a journey to Damascus, and Paul's Heavenly Ascension event, one and the same event?

I'd think that is a reasonable assumption. The blinding visitation by Jesus was given in Acts of the Apostles, which I am guessing took the root of the story from 2 Cor:

2 Cor 12

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

What were those "unspeakable words", according to Acts?

Acts 22:

6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

If it was the same event, then the "unspeakable words" turned out to be fairly mundane, not to mention lawful for a man to utter! So the story in Acts would be a watered-down version of what happened in 2 Cor 12, if indeed they are referring to the same event.

[gryan]

Literary parallels to Paul's Third Heaven/Paradise journey provide a clue to it's meaning:

Luke 23:43 ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ, "today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
2 Corinthians 12:4 ἰς τὸν παράδεισον, I was caught up into Paradise

Mark 15:32 οἱ συνεσταυρωμένοι σὺν αὐτῷ, Those who were co-crucified with Him
Galatians 2:20 Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι, co-crucified with Christ

I think the Gospel writers read Paul's account and they interpreted it as mystical participation in the death and resurrection of Christ. It could have been Paul's initial "revelation" but may not have been since he tells of it as part of a series of "visions and revelations". I think he would have told Cephas and James the Lord's brother about it since I read Gal 1 to suggest that he consulted them in the sense of asking for their authoritative interpretation. My reading of the nuances of Paul's accounts suggest to me that Cephas affirmed it as valid and James the Lord's brother rejected it as false.

[ABuddhist]

My reading of the nuances of Paul's accounts suggest to me that Cephas affirmed it as valid and James the Lord's brother rejected it as false.

Fascinating if true - and yet more support for my realization that Paul was not a typical early Christian.

[lsayre]

Were Paul's blinding visitation by Jesus during a journey to Damascus, and Paul's Heavenly Ascension event, one and the same event?

"14 years" are associated with both events.

Edit: Oops, correction, one mentions 3 years, and the other 14... But the "after three years in Damascus" comes after first going into Arabia, and we don't know how long the stay in Arabia which preceeds going to Damascus was. Could it have been 11 years?

[neilgodfrey]

If Luke's account of Paul's vision knocking him to the ground and blinding him and hearing a voice that no-one else could understand was written with Paul's own account of his experience in mind, and if it was Luke's agenda to reduce the status of Paul so that he was cut down to a status somewhere closer to that of the Twelve, and if Luke writes Acts to promote the ultimate authority of the Twelve with Paul of lower but still significant status, .... and I think many scholars would say that all of that is indeed Luke's agenda re Paul and the Twelve, . . . .

Then if all of the above is accepted (along with Luke's knowledge of Paul's letters but downplaying them for similar reasons) . . . .

Then notice how Luke inverts Paul's vision:

Paul says he was carried to heaven : Luke says he was knocked to the ground

Paul says he heard things unutterable : Luke says bystanders could not understand the voice

Paul says his vision exalted him : Luke says the vision was given because he was a persecutor and to humble him

Paul says God stuck a thorn in his side to keep him humble : Luke has Jesus say he was kicking against the pricks.

Is Luke's account of Paul's vision an inversion of Paul's claims to experiencing a vision beyond what the Twelve ever supposedly experienced - apart from the Transfiguration?

ETA:

Paul speaks of a revelatory vision : Luke of blindness

[John2]

Paul says he was carried to heaven : Luke says he was knocked to the ground

But in 2 Cor. 12:3-4 Paul says "this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise," so perhaps the author of Acts interpreted it as being an out of body experience.

Paul says he heard things unutterable : Luke says bystanders could not understand the voice

But Acts 9:7 says "The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless. They heard the voice but did not see anyone," and I don't see anything that indicates that they did not understand the voice, only that they didn't see Jesus.

Paul speaks of a revelatory vision : Luke of blindness

But doesn't Paul see Jesus in a vision before he becomes blind? It is only after his experience that Paul is said to be blind (9:8: "Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could not see a thing"), and Ananias says in 9:17, “the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you,” and in 22:14 Paul recounts that Ananias had said, "The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear His voice."

I may be overlooking something since I'm in a bit of a rush at the moment, but these things give me the impression that Paul saw Jesus in an out of body vision in Acts.