IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Chrism (XRISMA or XREISMA) in Philip

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:08 pm We have to somehow understand what this XRISMA thing is. IDK - it appears to be related to oil but there appear to be many different uses over time. What does Perseus say? The term or related terms no doubt go back to the epoch BCE. Same with Chrestian.
Philip is perfectly clear there and we can already follow the Coptic and Greek in his writings:

28. There is water in a water,a there is fire in a XRISMA

71. The enemy [comes] forth in water with fire. The soul and the spirit have come forth [in] water and fire with light, which pertain to the Son of the NYMPhWN. The fire is the XRISMA, the light is the fire. I do not speak of this fire that has no form, but rather the other one—whose form is white, which is made of beautiful light and which bestows splendor.

72. The truth did not come unto the world naked, but rather it has come in symbolic° images. (The world) will not receive it in any other fashion. There is a rebirth° together with a reborn image. It is truly appropriate not to be reborn thru the image.a What is the ANASTASIS with its image?—it is appropriate to arise thru the image.a The NYMPhWN with its image?—it is appropriate to come into the truth thru the image, which is this restoration°. It is appropriate for those born not only of the words ‘the Father with the Son with the Sacred Spirit’, but (moreover) are begotten of them themselves. Whoever is not begotten of them, will have the name also taken from him.b Yet one receives them in the XRISMA of the PLHRWMA in the power of the crossc, which the APOSTOLOS call: the right with the left.d For this-one is no longer [a XRηSTI]ANOS but rather a XRS.

73. The Lord [did] everything sacramentally: a Baptism with a XRISMA with a EYXARISTEIA with an Atonement with a [Holy] NYMPhWN

81. Without light, no one will be able to see himself either in water or in (a) mirror. Nor again without water or mirror will thou be able to see (thyself) in light. Therefore it is appropriate to be baptized in both—in the light as well as the water. Yet the light is the XRISMA.
101. The XREISMA is made lord over the Baptism.a For from the XRISMA we are called XRISTIANOS(s, andb) not because of the Baptism. And (he) was called the XS because of the XRISMA. For the Father anointed the Son, yet the Son anointed the APOSTOLOS, yet the APOSTOLOS anointed us.c He who has been anointed has the totality—he has the ANASTASIS, the light, the cross,d the Sacred Spirit. The Father bestowed this upon him in the NYMPhWN (andb) he received.

141. As long as the evil indeed is covert, it (remains) potential, not yet truly purged from the midst of the seed of the Sacred Spirit. (Thus) they are enslaved by the oppression.a Yet when the Perfect Light is revealed, then it will pour forth upon everyone and all those within it shall receive the XRISMA. Then the slaves shall be freed [and] the captives atoned.

Unsure I have them all but let's see what we can make of this?
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Re: IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Post by mlinssen »

I had something quite different in mind when I named "stats", by the way.
I'll do something really ruthless in a few hours, and I'm curious to see how it will help
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Re: IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Post by Leucius Charinus »

https://vocab.perseus.org/lemma/91910/? ... rseus-grc2

91910. χρῖσμα
anything smeared on

New Testament
First John 3 12.9

Galen
De sanitate tuenda 5 0.7
De venae sectione adversus Erasistrateos Romae degentes 1 1.1
De compositione medicamentorum secundum locos I-VI 3 0.2
De compositione medicamentorum per genera 6 0.6

Theophrastus
Characters 1 1.4

Old Testament
Exodus 2 0.8

unknown 1 0.5

pseudo-Galen
De remediis parabilibus 1 0.3
Clement of Alexandria
Paedagogus 6 1.1
Hippocrates
Epidemiarum 1 0.2
De morbis I 1 0.3
De muliebribus 1 0.2
Justin Martyr
Dialogue with Trypho 1 0.2
Eusebius
Historia Ecclesiastica 3 0.3
Demonstratio Evangelica 17 1.1
Oration of Constantine 1 0.9
Historia Ecclesiastica 4 0.4
Epiphanius
Ancoratus 1 0.2
Panarion (Adversus Haereses) 1 0.1
Origen
Contra Celsum 2 0.1
Hippolytus
Refutatio Omnium Haeresium (= Philosophumena) 2 0.3
Refutatio Omnium Haeresium (= Philosophumena) 2 0.3
Chronicon Paschale
Chronicon Paschale 2 0.2
Joannes Zonaras
Annals of Rome 3 0.1
Annals of Rome 3 0.3
Argumenta 2 0.9
Cyril of Alexandria
In XII Prophetas 1 0.0
Catenae (Novum Testamentum)
Catena In Matthaeum (Catena Integra) (E Cod. Paris. Coislin. Gr. 23) 1 0.1
Catena In Epistulam Ad Hebraeos (E Cod. Paris. Coislin. 204) 11 0.7
Catena in epistulam Petri ii (catena Andreae) (e cod. Oxon. coll. nov. 58) 3 2.5
Scholia in Homerum
Scholia in Odysseam 1 0.1
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Re: IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Post by MrMacSon »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:44 am
https://vocab.perseus.org/lemma/91910/? ... rseus-grc2

91910. χρῖσμα
anything smeared on

Justin Martyr
Dialogue with Trypho

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 86.3


Καὶ ὅτι λίθος Χριστὸς διὰ πολλῶν γραφῶν συμβολικῶς ἐκηρύσσετο, ὁμοίως ἀπεδείξαμεν· καὶ ὅτι τὸ χρῖσμα πᾶν, εἴτε ἐλαίου εἴτε στακτῆς, εἴτε τῶν ἄλλων τῶν τῆς συνθέσεως τοῦ μύρου χρισμάτων, τούτου ἦν. ὁμοίως ἀπεδείξαμεν, τοῦ λόγου λέγοντος· Διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέ σε, ὁ θεός, ὁ θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου [Ps., XLIV, 7]. Καὶ γὰρ οἱ βασιλεῖς πάντες καὶ οἱ χριστοὶ ἀπὸ τούτου μετέσχον καὶ βασιλεῖς καλεῖσθαι καὶ χριστοί· ὃν τρόπον καὶ αὐτὸς ἀπὸ τοῦ πατρὸς ἔλαβε τὸ βασιλεὺς καὶ Χριστὸς καὶ ἱερεὺς καὶ ἄγγελος, καὶ ὅσα ἄλλα τοιαῦτα ἔχει ἢ ἔσχε. https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:c ... grc2:86.3/

And that the stone symbolically proclaimed Christ, we have also proved by many Scriptures; and that the ointment, whether it was of oil, or of stacte, or of any other compounded sweet balsams, had reference to Him, we have also proved, inasmuch as the word/logos says: 'Therefore God, even Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.' For indeed all kings and anointed persons obtained from Him their share in the names of kings and anointed: just as He Himself received from the Father the titles of King, and Christ, and Priest, and Angel, and such like other titles which He bears or did bear. Aaron's rod, which blossomed, declared him to be the high priest. Isaiah prophesied that a rod would come forth from the root of Jesse, [and this was] Christ. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm


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Re: IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Post by MrMacSon »

Origen, Contra Celsum 6.27


Ἑξῆς δὲ τοῖς περὶ τοῦ διαγράμματος μηδὲ παρακούσας τῶν περὶ τῆς καλουμένης παρὰ τοῖς ἐκκλησιαστικοῖς σφραγῖδος ἑαυτῷ τινα ἐκτίθεται ἀλλόκοτα καὶ ἀμοιβαίας φωνὰς, ὡς τοῦ μὲν τὴν σφραγῖδα περιτιθέντος καλουμένου πατρὸς, τοῦ δὲ σφραγιζομένου λεγομένου νέου καὶ υἱοῦ καὶ ἀποκρινομένου· κέχρισμαι χρίσματι λευκῷ ἐκ ξύλου ζωῆς ... https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:c ... grc1:6.27/

After the matter of the diagram, he brings forward certain monstrous statements, in the form of question and answer, regarding what is called by ecclesiastical writers the seal, statements which did not arise from imperfect information; such as that "he who impresses the seal is called father, and he who is sealed is called young man and son;" and who answers, "I have been anointed with white ointment from the tree of life" — things which we never heard to have occurred even among the heretics. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04166.htm



Origen, Contra Celsum 6.79

.
Διὸ καὶ χρεία οὐκ ἦν πολλὰ γενέσθαι πανταχοῦ σώματα καὶ πολλὰ ἀνάλογον τῷ Ἰησοῦ πνεύματα, ἵν ἡ πᾶσα τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἰκουμένη φωτισθῇ τῷ λόγῳ τοῦ θεοῦ. ἤρκει γὰρ ὁ εἷς λόγος, ὡς „δικαιοσύνης ἥλιος“ ἀνατείλας, ἀπὸ τῆς Ἰουδαίας ἐκπέμψαι τὰς ἐπὶ τὴν ψυχὴν τῶν βουλομένων αὐτὸν παραδέξασθαι φθανούσας αὐγάς.

εἰ δὲ καὶ πολλά τις ποθεῖ σώματα πεπληρωμένα θείου πνεύματος ἰδεῖν, ἀνάλογον ἐκείνῳ τῷ ἑνὶ Χριστῷ διακονούμενα τῇ πανταχοῦ τῶν ἀνθρώπων σωτηρίᾳ, κατανοείτω τοὺς πανταχοῦ ὑγιῶς καὶ μετὰ βίου ὀρθοῦ διδάσκοντας τὸν Ἰησοῦ λόγον, Χριστοὺς καὶ αὐτοὺς ὑπὸ τῶν θείων γραφῶν καλουμένους ἐν τῷ „μὴ ἅπτεσθε τῶν Χριστῶν μου, καὶ ἐν τοῖς προφήταις μου μὴ πονηρεύεσθε.“
.
.
And therefore there was no need that there should everywhere exist many bodies, and many spirits like Jesus, in order that the whole world of men might be enlightened by the Word of God. For the one Word was enough, having arisen as the Sun of righteousness, to send forth from Judea His coming rays into the soul of all who were willing to receive Him.

But if any one desires to see many bodies filled with a divine Spirit, similar to the one Christ, ministering to the salvation of men everywhere, let him take note of those who teach the [Word] of Jesus in all lands in soundness of doctrine and uprightness of life, and who are themselves termed Christs by the holy Scriptures, in the passage, "Touch not Mine anointed, and do not My prophets any harm." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04166.htm
.
.
καὶ γὰρ ὥσπερ ἠκούσαμεν „ὅτι ἀντίχριστος ἔρχεται,“ καὶ οὐδὲν ἧττον μεμαθήκαμεν ὅτι „ἀντίχριστοι πολλοί“ εἰσιν ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ· τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον ὅτι Χριστὸς ἐπιδεδήμηκε γνόντες θεωροῦμεν ὅτι δι αὐτὸν πολλοὶ Χριστοὶ γεγόνασιν ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, οἵτινες ἀνάλογον ἐκείνῳ ἠγάπησαν „δικαιοσύνην καὶ“ ἐμίσησαν „ἀδικίαν· καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισε καὶ αὐτοὺς „ὁ θεὸς, ὁ θεὸς τοῦ Χριστοῦ“, „ἐλαίῳ ἀγαλλιάσεως.“ ἀλλ ἐκεῖνος μὲν οὖν ὑπὲρ „τοὺς μετόχους“ αὐτοῦ ἀγαπήσας „δικαιοσύνην καὶ“ μισήσας „ἀνομίαν“ καὶ τὴν ἀπαρχὴν εἴληφε τοῦ χρίσματος καὶ, εἰ χρὴ οὕτως ὀνομάσαι, ὅλον τὸ χρῖσμα τοῦ τῆς „ἀγαλλιάσεως“ ἐλαίου· οἱ δὲ μέτοχοι αὐτοῦ, ἕκαστος ὡς κεχώρηκε, μετέσχον καὶ τοῦ χρίσματος αὐτοῦ. διόπερ, ἐπεὶ Χριστὸς „κεφαλή“ ἐστι „τῆς ἐκκλησίας,“ ὡς εἶναι ἓν σῶμα Χριστὸν καὶ τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, τὸ „μύρον ἐπὶ κεφαλῆς“ καταβέβηκεν „ἐπὶ τὸν πώγωνα,“ τὰ σύμβολα τοῦ τελείου ἀνδρὸς „Ἀαρὼν,“ καὶ ἔφθασε „καταβαῖνον“ τοῦτο τὸ „μύρον“ „ἐπὶ τὴν ὤαν τοῦ ἐνδύματος αὐτοῦ.“ https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:c ... grc1:6.79/
.
.
For as we have heard that „Antichrist comes“, and yet have learned that there are „many antichrists in the world“, in the same way, knowing that Christ has come, we see that, owing to Him, there are many Christs in the world, who, like Him, have loved righteousness and hated iniquity, and therefore „the God, the God of Christ“, anointed them also with the oil of gladness. But inasmuch as He loved righteousness and hated iniquity above those who were His partners, He also obtained the first-fruits of His anointing, and, if we must so term it, the entire unction of the oil of gladness; while they who were His partners shared also in His unction, in proportion to their individual capacity. Therefore, since Christ is the Head of the Church, so that Christ and the Church form one body, the ointment descended from the head to the beard of Aaron — the symbols of the perfect man — and this ointment in its descent reached to the very skirt of his garment. This is my answer to the irreverent language of Celsus when he says, "He ought to have breathed (His Spirit) alike into many bodies, and have sent it forth into all the world."
.




There's also this in Origen, Contra Celsum 6.27 which is like the passage in Contra Celsum 6.79 where, after mention of χρίσμα, there was mention of Christ, only in this early passage there's mentions of Christianity and Christians


καὶ δοκεῖ μοι παραπλήσιον Ἰουδαίοις πεποιηκέναι, τοῖς κατὰ τὴν ἀρχὴν (τῆς) τοῦ Χριστιανισμοῦ διδασκαλίας κατασκεδάσασι δυσφημίαν τοῦ λόγου, ὡς ἄρα καταθύσαντες παιδίον μεταλαμβάνουσιν αὐτοῦ τῶν σαρκῶν, καὶ πάλιν ὅτι οἱ ἀπὸ τοῦ λόγου τὰ τοῦ σκότου πράττειν βουλόμενοι σβεννύουσι μὲν τὸ φῶς. ἕκαστος δὲ τῇ παρατυχούσῃ μίγνυται· ἥτις δυσφημία παραλόγως πάλαι μὲν πλείστων ὅσων ἐκράτει πείθουσα τοὺς ἀλλοτρίους τοῦ λόγου ὅτι τοιοῦτοί εἰσι Χριστιανοὶ, καὶ νῦν δὲ ἔτι ἀπατᾷ τινας ἀποτρεπομένους διὰ τὰ τοιαῦτα κἂν εἰς κοινωνίαν ἁπλουστέραν λόγων ἥκειν πρὸς Χριστιανούς. https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:c ... grc1:6.27/

He appears to me, indeed, to have acted like those Jews who, when Christianity began to be first preached, scattered abroad false reports of the [Word], such as that Christians[?] offered up an infant in sacrifice, and partook of its flesh; and again, that the professors of Christianity[?], wishing to do the 'works of darkness,' used to extinguish the lights (in their meetings), and each one to have sexual intercourse with any woman whom he chanced to meet. These calumnies have long exercised, although unreasonably, an influence over the minds of very many, leading those who are aliens to the [Word] to believe that Christians are men of such a character; and even at the present day they mislead some, and prevent them from entering even into the simple intercourse of conversation with those who are Christians.


Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:17 am Origen, Contra Celsum 6.27
You're on a roll Mac!!! This is fantastic - and puzzling

I've copied the relevant part of viewtopic.php?p=139563#p139563

The only Greek words to look for here are χριστός as well as χρηστός: so how about χρηστός?

Romans 2:4 χρηστότητος (kindness) & χρηστὸν (kindness)
Romas 3:12 χρηστότητα (good)
Romans 11:22 χρηστότητα (the kindness) & χρηστότης (kindness) & χρηστότητι (kindness)
Romans 16:18 χρηστολογίας (smooth talk) - and that's a negative connotation
1 Corinthians 13:4 χρηστεύεται (is kind)
1 Corinthians 15:33 χρηστὰ (good)
2 Corinthians 6:3 χρηστότητι (kindness)
Galatians 5:22 χρηστότης (kindness)
Epheasians 2:7 χρηστότητι (kindness)
Epheasians 4:32 χρηστοί (kind)
Colossians 3:12 χρηστότητα (kindness)
2 Timothy 2:21 εὔχρηστον (useful)
2 Timothy 4:11 εὔχρηστος (useful)
Titus 3:4 χρηστότης (kindness)
Philemon 1:10 ἄχρηστον (useless) & εὔχρηστον (useful)
1 Peter 2:3 χρηστὸς (is good)

And how about the gospels?

Matthew 11:30 χρηστὸς (is easy)
Luke 5:39 χρηστός (better)
Luke 6:35 χρηστός (kind)

And that's it... and we can clearly see a huge imbalance here as there's an imbalance in just about everything when we compare the gospels to the letters.
Now for the counter question: how often does χριστός occur in any of its forms? Naturally we have to ignore Berean here as it writes out the ligatures IS and XS in full, and the real question is whether the notion of anointing got represented via any other word but χριστ-xyz, from the Greek verb χρίω - to touch / rub

Matthew 6:17 ἄλειψαί (anoint)
Mark 6:13 ἤλειφον (were anointing)
Mark 14:8 μυρίσαι (to anoint)
Mark 16:1 ἀλείψωσιν (they might anoint)
Luke 4:18 ἔχρισέν (He has anointed)
Luke 7:38 ἤλειφεν (was anointing them)
Luke 8:46 ἤλειψας (you did anoint) & ἤλειψεν (anointed)
Luke 23:56 μύρα (anointing oils)
John 9:11 ἐπέχρισέν (anointed)
John 11:2 ἀλείψασα (having anointed)
John 12:3 ἤλειψεν (anointed)


2 Corinthians 1:21 χρίσας (having anointed)
Hebrews 1:8 ἔχρισέν (has anointed)
James 5:14 ἀλείψαντες (having anointed)
1 John 2:20 χρῖσμα (the anointing)
1 John 2:27 χρῖσμα (anointing) & χρῖσμα (anointing)
Revelation 3:18 ἐγχρῖσαι (to anoint)

Again, I'm ignoring Acts!!!

Pay very close attention to the two different verbs here and you see that only Luke and John use χρι-xyz whereas ἄλειψαί is used to describe "mere anointing"

Now, the question is: why is there so much Xrisma-stuff in what you have found, and so little in the NT?

My underlying question is: why not "fix" the NT?
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Re: IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:53 am
Now, the question is: why is there so much Xrisma-stuff in what you have found, and so little in the NT?

My underlying question is: why not "fix" the NT?

Justin farms the Psalms —
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:21 am
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 86.3


... τοῦ λόγου λέγοντος· Διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέ σε, ὁ θεός, ὁ θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου [Ps., XLIV, 7].

... the Logos says: 'Therefore God, even Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.' [Ps 44.7]


— and the NT collators and editors somewhat hide that methodology




fwiw


... Διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέ σε, ὁ θεός, ὁ θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ1 τοὺς μετόχους σου [Ps., XLIV, 7].

... Through this anointing [of?] you, that God, that God you [olive] oil joyfully/with exultation beside the partakers you —>>

... Through your anointing, that God, that God you oil joyfully/with exultation by/beside1 your partakers, or

... Through your anointing, that God, that God oiled you with exultant joy beside/among1 your [fellow] partakers


1 παρὰ | (pará) governs the genitive, dative and accusative
  • It can mean
    1. (+ genitive)
      • from
      • because of
    2. (+ dative)
      • at, beside, by, near
      • μένειν παρὰ τισί ― ménein parà tisí ― to stay at someone's house/home
    3. (+ accusative)
      • contrary to
      • beside, by, near (w/ verbs of coming or going; w/ verbs of past motion; w/ verbs of striking or wounding)
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC
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Re: IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:53 am

Matthew 6:17 ἄλειψαί (anoint)
Mark 6:13 ἤλειφον (were anointing)
Mark 14:8 μυρίσαι (to anoint)
Mark 16:1 ἀλείψωσιν (they might anoint)
Luke 4:18 ἔχρισέν (He has anointed)
Luke 7:38 ἤλειφεν (was anointing them)
Luke 8:46 ἤλειψας (you did anoint) & ἤλειψεν (anointed)
Luke 23:56 μύρα (anointing oils)
John 9:11 ἐπέχρισέν (anointed)
John 11:2 ἀλείψασα (having anointed)
John 12:3 ἤλειψεν (anointed)




2 Corinthians 1:21 χρίσας (having anointed)
Hebrews 1:8 ἔχρισέν (has anointed)
James 5:14 ἀλείψαντες (having anointed)
1 John 2:20 χρῖσμα (the anointing)
1 John 2:27 χρῖσμα (anointing) & χρῖσμα (anointing)
Revelation 3:18 ἐγχρῖσαι (to anoint)


Pay very close attention to the two different verbs here ...


One definition of ἔχρισέν is
  • touch the surface of a body slightly [or, perhaps, touch lightly]

    https://morphological_el.en-academic.com/828873/ἔχρισέν
    https://morphologia_gr_en.en-academic.com/98754/%CE%AD%CF%87%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%BD
    (dunno why these won't hyperlink, but they work with copy-paste)

One page of biblehub on Strongs on chrio | χρίω has

For chraomai Strongs has
  • use, entreat

    ... to furnish what is needed; (give an oracle, "graze" (touch slightly), light upon, etc.), ie. (by implication) to employ or (by extension) to act towards one in a given manner -- entreat, use.

    Compare chrao,a chreb

    https://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/5530.htm

a chraó

b chré
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Re: IS XS: No Jesus or Christ spelled out in early MSS

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:44 am https://vocab.perseus.org/lemma/91910/? ... rseus-grc2

91910.
χρῖσμα
anything smeared on

Galen
De sanitate tuenda 5 0.7
De venae sectione adversus Erasistrateos Romae degentes 1 1.1
De compositione medicamentorum secundum locos I-VI 3 0.2
De compositione medicamentorum per genera 6 0.6
Mark 6:13, NIV wrote:They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them
Galen was a physician and referred to himself as a "therapeutae" of Asclepius. The temples of Asclepius were basically the public hospital system in antiquity. The system flourished from the time of Hippocrates but was essentially destroyed during the rule of Constantine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae_of_Asclepius

As such Galen and his colleagues probably " anointed many sick people with oil and healed them". No one was turned away. The healing deity Asclepius was known for his generosity. Asclepius and Hermes have a conversation in the NHL at NHC 6

In terms of "driving out demons" and psychological cures:
He [Asclepius] was appealed to in diseases of the body and of the soul; people slept in his temples, to be cured; the costliest gifts were brought him as the ΘΕΟΣ ΣΩΤΗΡ ("God the Savior"); and people consecrated their lives to him, as innumerable inscriptions and statues testify. In the case of other gods as well, healing virtue now became a central feature. Zeus himself and Apollo (cp., e.g., Tatian, Orat. 8) appeared in a new light. They, too, became "saviors." No one could be a god any longer, unless he was also a savior.\12/ Glance over Origen's great reply to Celsus, and you soon discover that one point hotly disputed by these two remarkable men was the question whether Jesus or Aesculapius was the true Savior.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/courses/5 ... bk2all.htm
The Mission and Expansion of Christianity in the First Three Centuries
by Adolph (von) Harnack - translated and edited by James Moffatt

It would appear to be a fact that the "apostles" (physicians, followers, therapeutae) of Asclepius (such as Galen and those before him in the epoch BCE) "drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them" through standard medical practice.


Pilate informs Jews that Jesus heals by the god Asclepius

Pilate saith: And what things are they that he doeth, and would destroy the law?

The Jews say: We have a law that we should not heal any man on the sabbath: but this man of his evil deeds hath healed the lame and the bent, the withered and the blind and the paralytic, the dumb and them that were possessed, on the sabbath day!

Pilate saith unto them: By what evil deeds?

They say unto him: He is a sorcerer, and by Beelzebub the prince of the devils he casteth out devils, and they are all subject unto him.

Pilate saith unto them: This is not to cast out devils by an unclean spirit, but by the god Asclepius.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... demus.html

[Comment: this was IMO probably written by an anti-Christian satirist]

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mlinssen
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Double jeopardy: LXX as a second layer to NT falsifications

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:51 pm
mlinssen wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:53 am
Now, the question is: why is there so much Xrisma-stuff in what you have found, and so little in the NT?

My underlying question is: why not "fix" the NT?

Justin farms the Psalms —
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:21 am
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 86.3


... τοῦ λόγου λέγοντος· Διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέ σε, ὁ θεός, ὁ θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ τοὺς μετόχους σου [Ps., XLIV, 7].

... the Logos says: 'Therefore God, even Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.' [Ps 44.7]


— and the NT collators and editors somewhat hide that methodology




fwiw


... Διὰ τοῦτο ἔχρισέ σε, ὁ θεός, ὁ θεός σου ἔλαιον ἀγαλλιάσεως παρὰ1 τοὺς μετόχους σου [Ps., XLIV, 7].

... Through this anointing [of?] you, that God, that God you [olive] oil joyfully/with exultation beside the partakers you —>>

... Through your anointing, that God, that God you oil joyfully/with exultation by/beside1 your partakers, or

... Through your anointing, that God, that God oiled you with exultant joy beside/among1 your [fellow] partakers


1 παρὰ | (pará) governs the genitive, dative and accusative
  • It can mean
    1. (+ genitive)
      • from
      • because of
    2. (+ dative)
      • at, beside, by, near
      • μένειν παρὰ τισί ― ménein parà tisí ― to stay at someone's house/home
    3. (+ accusative)
      • contrary to
      • beside, by, near (w/ verbs of coming or going; w/ verbs of past motion; w/ verbs of striking or wounding)
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC
Yes, precisely - and that is my entire point!
The Romans changed what they could change, and grudgingly and reluctantly accepted that they couldn't what they couldn't

So that means that
1. not even Justin could rewrite the NT anymore, all of that was a given by the time of his writings: fixated, untouchable, a textual legacy that couldn't be refused in any way yet it could be bartered about and away in writings of his own such as these.
"Yes of course" you will say, but I have always wondered about his quotes (and those of the other FF) that very often are combinations of what we know from Matthew and Luke: and my thesis still is that the main game was to take content from the original source and place it into a context of their own making, so my assumption is that the quotes should be verbatim - which they aren't as a rule
2. they rewrote what they could, which is all of the LXX: Romans created the Septuagint in about 2nd half 2nd CE at the earliest in order to support their spin to Chrestianity. All the mistranslations are deliberate ones and they thus do exactly what I claim they do: take Chrestian content and place it into a context of their own making.
Mark already does that and naturally Matthew does it best, yet Dialogue with Trypho illustrates what that lead to: justified objections from Judaics (and related) that their context isn't a reliable representation of what that context is supposed to represent. So they rewrote all of the context itself as well with the (goal and) result that it perfectly supported their own recontextualisation of the Chrestian content

The LXX story is bogus of course, and with Gmirkin's splendid research and discovery the alleged timeline has become completely unfeasible. But there is not even the slightest trace of a Septuagint that isn't littered with the typical scribal signs ü, ï, apostrophe and line-ending superlinear that I still claim to have come and originated from Thomas

So while we can see original Xrisma-stuff in the original content (Luke and John), the dumb Romans initially didn't notice the individual words across the language barrier yet fixed that omission by publishing their own version of the Hebrew bible.
And it is clear why there are so many "lost in translation" issues there; some because of their inaccuracy yet some also because they simply were meant to say something different
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