Shameless Plug: History Valley: Did Josephus mention Jesus? Ken Olson vs James Valliant

[Ken Olson]

I debated James Valliant on whether Josephus mentioned Jesus on Jacob Berman's History Valley YouTube channel yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0st7kojCWw&t=3854s

Unfortunately, there were a lot of interruptions and people talking over each other. I never quite managed to get to my second point on Hegesippus and Origen, that the fulfillment of the prophecy in 'they shall eat the fruit of their doings' (quoted in Eus. HE 2.22.15) and the word immediately (quoted in HE 2.22.19) do establish a causal connection between the killing of James and the downfall of Jerusalem.

What I found most interesting is that Valliant has shifted to the position of total authenticity. As I say in the video, I think this is because, once one allows partial interpolation, one gives up the argument that the fact that the Testimonium appears in all the MSS. of Josephus Antiquities, so it must be authentic. Once one allows that the text is partially interpolated, and that those interpolations appear in all the manuscripts, the question of whether Josephus or the interpolator wrote any particular part of the text stands on an equal footing (i.e., there is no presumption that part of the TF must be authentic because it's in our MSS. of Josephus, as are the admitted interpolations).

I'd be interested to hear what people here think on the video and he issue discussed there (i.e., whether Josephus mentioned Jesus [the Christian Jesus]).

Valliant's co-authored book Creating Christ was previously discussed on this forum in this thread and elsewhere:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5054&hilit=valliant+creating

Best,

Ken

[Giuseppe]

What I found most interesting is that Valliant has shifted to the position of total authenticity.

So is now Valliant not even more a Jesus Agnostic ? Is he a historicist?

[gryan]

Wow, Congrats. That was fun to listen to. I'm not familiar with the specifics involved, but Ken, as far as I can tell, I'm on your side of this one. Thanks for getting in there and making your argument.

[gryan]

I'm listening to your opening argument where you quote the text in question, arguing that it is an interpolation written by Eusebius. You quote and argue from memory. Your argument is so very convincing and well presented.

[gryan]

For background to this video, I see Wikipedia as an interesting page about Josephus on Jesus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

[gryan]

Argument: Josephas does not mention NT Jesus or his brother James.

Supportive argument: Josephas does not mention Hillel, why would he mention NT Jesus?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder

Good argument.

[gryan]

Re: The "James" who put to death according Josephus

Argument: The original "James" who according to Josephus was executed was not "James the Lord's brother."

Yes!

[John T]

I'd be interested to hear what people here think on the video and he issue discussed there (i.e., whether Josephus mentioned Jesus [the Christian Jesus]).

Ken

Yes. Josephus or should I say, "his scribe" did in fact mention Jesus. You can question the accuracy of his account but not his assertion that Jesus existed (Antiquities of the Jews. Book 20, chapter 9, 1. (200).

Ken, no disrespect to you but the constant interruptions and eye rolling of Valliant makes it unbearable to watch in full. Perhaps that was his goal all along. Besides, this is old stuff on this forum. The mythicists will always claim interpolation when historical accounts contradict their crackpot theory.

So, why argue with them? They are not at all interested in arguing the merits but rather use these forums as a sounding board in hopes that some noteworthy scholar like Dr. Ehramn will engage them, thus giving them credibility. But they are not interested in the truth or hearing out the opposition, that is why Dr. Ehrman no longer debates them. If need be, they will simply deny Josephus even existed, if that is what it takes.


viewtopic.php?p=81509

[gryan]

So, why argue with them?

I appreciate the argument that authentic Josephus never mentions NT Jesus. This is new and fresh for me!

For more info:

Olson has published on this topic.
https://archive.chs.harvard.edu/CHS/art ... -ken-olson

And Olson has a blog.
https://kenolsonsblog.wordpress.com/

[gryan]

Interesting note: Olson's argument against the authenticity of the James the Lord's brother execution in pseudo-Josephus is not the same as Carriers argument.