How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by John T »

Mythicisits are no different than any other major religion in that it has many different denominations with essentially the same tenants. In the vein of academic pursuit, perhaps we can start a list on this forum of the different denominations/sects of mythicism and understand just how they differ, when it started and who is their current leader?

Christian Mythicists: They preach against a historical, earthly Jesus. e.g. Richard Carrier.

Flavian Mythicists: The Flavian Dynasty preached against the Jewish God. They made up Paul and the gospels of Jesus to pacify the fanatical Jews. e.g. James Valliant.

Existentialist Mythicists: Preach against a loving God. No need to seek objective values or religious commandments to appeal to. e.g. Jean-Paul Sartre.

Objectivist Mythicists: Seek the path of Aristotle, and thereby accept that reality is real and things are as they appear. No appeal to anything that lies beyond reality or transcending reality. Reject the mind-body dichotomy. Existence precedes consciousness. Current leader, Leonard Peikoff

Feel free to include your branch of mythicism, the origin of it and it's current leader.

As the list grows I will edit this page to make any necessary corrections. :cheers:
Last edited by John T on Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
lsayre
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by lsayre »

Objectivists: Seek the path of Aristotle, and thereby accept that reality is real and things are as they appear. No appeal to anything that lies beyond reality or transcending reality. Reject the mind-body dichotomy. Existence precedes consciousness. Current leader, Leonard Peikoff
What is morality, or ethics? It is a code of values to guide man’s choices and actions—the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the course of his life. Ethics, as a science, deals with discovering and defining such a code.

The first question that has to be answered, as a precondition of any attempt to define, to judge or to accept any specific system of ethics, is: Why does man need a code of values?

Let me stress this. The first question is not: What particular code of values should man accept? The first question is: Does man need values at all—and why?
“Man has been called a rational being, but rationality is a matter of choice—and the alternative his nature offers him is: rational being or suicidal animal. Man has to be man—by choice; he has to hold his life as a value—by choice; he has to learn to sustain it—by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.”

The standard of value of the Objectivist ethics—the standard by which one judges what is good or evil—is man’s life, or: that which is required for man’s survival qua man.

Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil. Since everything man needs has to be discovered by his own mind and produced by his own effort, the two essentials of the method of survival proper to a rational being are: thinking and productive work.
Life or death is man’s only fundamental alternative. To live is his basic act of choice. If he chooses to live, a rational ethics will tell him what principles of action are required to implement his choice. If he does not choose to live, nature will take its course.
Sweep aside those parasites of subsidized classrooms, who live on the profits of the mind of others and proclaim that man needs no morality, no values, no code of behavior. They, who pose as scientists and claim that man is only an animal, do not grant him inclusion in the law of existence they have granted to the lowest of insects. They recognize that every living species has a way of survival demanded by its nature, they do not claim that a fish can live out of water or that a dog can live without its sense of smell—but man, they claim, the most complex of beings, man can survive in any way whatever, man has no identity, no nature, and there’s no practical reason why he cannot live with his means of survival destroyed, with his mind throttled and placed at the disposal of any orders they might care to issue.

Sweep aside those hatred-eaten mystics, who pose as friends of humanity and preach that the highest virtue man can practice is to hold his own life as of no value. Do they tell you that the purpose of morality is to curb man’s instinct of self-preservation? It is for the purpose of self-preservation that man needs a code of morality. The only man who desires to be moral is the man who desires to live.
I would say that man’s only moral commandment is: Thou shalt think. But a “moral commandment” is a contradiction in terms. The moral is the chosen, not the forced; the understood, not the obeyed. The moral is the rational, and reason accepts no commandments.

My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these. To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason—Purpose—Self-esteem. Reason, as his only tool of knowledge—Purpose, as his choice of the happiness which that tool must proceed to achieve—Self-esteem, as his inviolate certainty that his mind is competent to think and his person is worthy of happiness, which means: is worthy of living. These three values imply and require all of man’s virtues, and all his virtues pertain to the relation of existence and consciousness: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride.
You who prattle that morality is social and that man would need no morality on a desert island—it is on a desert island that he would need it most. Let him try to claim, when there are no victims to pay for it, that a rock is a house, that sand is clothing, that food will drop into his mouth without cause or effort, that he will collect a harvest tomorrow by devouring his stock seed today—and reality will wipe him out, as he deserves; reality will show him that life is a value to be bought and that thinking is the only coin noble enough to buy it.
A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man’s sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality.
They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth. The mystics of spirit call it “another dimension,” which consists of denying dimensions. The mystics of muscle call it “the future,” which consists of denying the present. To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to give to their superior realm? They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All their identifications consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say—and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge—God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out.
lsayre
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by lsayre »

Christians are an obvious example of mythicism. So are socialists. In brief, any belief that an outside consciousness transcends individual reason is mythicism. Be it a god, or a collective mind, as for a "common" or "greater" good. There can be no greater good than to uphold life as the standard of value.

Never forget that in a world where protecting minorities seems to present an opening to a collective driven standard of value, the smallest minority is the individual.
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by John T »

lsayre wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:31 am Objectivists: Seek the path of Aristotle, and thereby accept that reality is real and things are as they appear. No appeal to anything that lies beyond reality or transcending reality. Reject the mind-body dichotomy. Existence precedes consciousness. Current leader, Leonard Peikoff
Please clarify for me. Are not Objectivists also atheists? Aristotle was a theist that is, he believed in a prime mover. However, Aristotle did not believe in a contemplating God that interacts with humans. :?:
lsayre
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by lsayre »

Aristotle was conflicted in his thinking. He lacked consistency in his reasoning thereby. But then until well past the emergence of the reformation, and even to this very day, he was not alone in this. The prominent/essential view from among the USA's "founding fathers" was that of deism, which may be along the lines of an Aristotle.

Certainly the battle ground is between accepting the core philosophical tenants of Platonism or accepting the same for Aristotelianism. Western religion emerged from Platonism. In part because of Aristotle's lack of consistency. Right or wrong, consistency generally wins out over inconsistency.

As an aside, this is why liberals will win out in the long run over conservatives. Their philosophy (steeped as it is in a belief in the efficacy of a transcendent collective human consciousness) is far more unified than the schismatic philosophical near vacuum that exists within conservatism. Liberals are subjectivists, and so are most conservatives. Liberals accept a form of transcendent consciousness, and conservatives either accept the same, or accept the "god" form. Neither of these believe that reality is real, things are as they appear, and consciousness in some form can not alter reality. In the long run the most consistent view always seems to win. A more consistent conservatism would reject any form of transcendent consciousness worship. I.E., it would jettison that aspect of Aristotle that was not consistent.
Last edited by lsayre on Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
lsayre
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by lsayre »

Technically, shouldn't mythicism be called anti-mythicism?
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by John T »

lsayre wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:43 am

As an aside, this is why liberals will win out in the long run over conservatives. Their philosophy (steeped as it is in a belief in the efficacy of a transcendent collective human consciousness) is far more unified than the schismatic philosophical near vacuum that exists within conservatism.
As an aside, pray to God liberals don't win.

Liberals feel.
Conservatives think.

Liberals feel they have a strong argument based on how strongly they feel about it.
Conservatives know they have a strong argument based on the facts and the evidence that supports it.

Liberals feel they are their own god.
Conservatives know they aren't God.

Liberals claim they read the Constitution and that it is all a lie.
Conservatives understand the Constitution and recognized it as the best hope for humanity.

This thread is not about your political beliefs nor mine, but the different denominations of the mythicist today.

I now return you to our scheduled program. Sorry about the interruption.
lsayre
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by lsayre »

John T wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:06 am
Liberals feel.
Conservatives think.

Liberals feel they have a strong argument based on how strongly they feel about it.
Conservatives know they have a strong argument based on the facts and the evidence that supports it.

Liberals feel they are their own god.
Conservatives know they aren't God.

Liberals claim they read the Constitution and that it is all a lie.
Conservatives understand the Constitution and recognized it as the best hope for humanity.

This thread is not about your political beliefs nor mine, but the different denominations of the mythicist today.

I now return you to our scheduled program. Sorry about the interruption.
We are perhaps more alike than different. Now if we could just work out those Aristotelian conflictions and Platonic tendencies! :-)
Last edited by lsayre on Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by John T »

lsayre wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:21 am
We are perhaps more alike than different. Now if we could just work out those Aristotelian conflictions! :-)
Plato vs. Aristotle on the prime mover?

A difference without much distinction.

But, sure, if you want to split hairs. However, not on this thread.
Please start a new one on the appropriate board index and I will join you there. :cheers:
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: How many denominations of mythicism is there?

Post by ABuddhist »

John T wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:40 am Christian Mythicists: They preach against a historical, earthly Jesus. e.g. Richard Carrier.

Flavian Mythicists: The Flavian Dynasty preached against the Jewish God. They made up Paul and the gospels of Jesus to pacify the fanatical Jews.
With all due respect, I would classify flavian mythicism as a sub-type of what you call Christian mythicism, and would add the following subtypes.

Celestial-Jesus Mythicism - the type advocated by Carrier, Douherty, and Couchoud, with Jesus having been accepted by the earliest Christians as a celestial saviour figure akin to Amitabha Buddha.

Distant-Past Mythicism: the type advocated by G. A. Wells at times, in which Jesus was believed by the earliest Christians to have lived upon the earth in the mythical past, akin to Inachos and Heracles and Kassapa Buddha

Comparative Religions Mythicism: the type associated with claims that Jesus is just like Mithras, Osiris, and other deities - and no more real.

Astrotheological mythicism: the type associated with claims that Christianity is an allegory for the astronomical processes.

Cathar mythicism: The Cathars apparently really believed that the Jesus Christ whom they regarded as their saviour was a purely heavenly figure. But strangely enough, they also believed that the gospels' narratives were distorted accounts of a real and evil man's deeds.

I would add as a category equal to Christian mythicism Buddhist mythicism - the claim that the Buddha Gautama was not a historical figure (advocated by, among others, the Buddhist David Chapman); and Islamic Mythicism - the claim that Muhammad and early figures in Islam were not historical figures (advocated by, among others, Robert Spencer).
Post Reply