In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

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gryan
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In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by gryan »

I am in search of Matthew/John parallels that are distinctive in the sense that the material is absent from Mark and Luke.

I have only this one parallel usage not found in Mark and Luke. It is this oddly similar use of "the other..." not found in Mark or Luke:

John 20:3
So Peter and the other disciple (ὁ ἄλλος μαθητής) started for the tomb.

Matt. 28:1
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία) went to look at the tomb.

viewtopic.php?t=8266

With this parallel usage as a model: Are there additional distinctive Matt/John parallels not to be found in Mark/Luke?
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Ken Olson
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by Ken Olson »

gryan,

This topic was discussed (among others) previously in this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=87344#p87344

The late Frans Neirynck of Leuven published several papers (collected in Neirynck, Evangelica, 3 vols.) arguing that Jesus' post-resurrection appearance to Mary Magdalen in John 20.11-14 is dependent on Matt 28.9-10, which he took to be a Matthean redactional expansion of Mark 16.6-7.

You might also look at Matthew's Centurion (Matt 8.5-13) and John's royal official (John 4.46-54) to see if they have parallels not shared with Luke (Luke 7.1-10). I don't recall off the top of my head if there are.

Best,

Ken
gryan
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by gryan »

@Ken Olson

Thanks!

Matt 28.9-10
Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

John 20:16-17
Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”). Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”

Here is what strikes me: "Do not hold on to me" seems to interact with "They... clasped his feet"
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Ken Olson
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by Ken Olson »

gryan wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:41 am Here is what strikes me: "Do not hold on to me" seems to interact with "They... clasped his feet"
Right. The other part of Neirynck's case is that Matthew's additional details are explicable as Matthew's own redactional expansion of Mark and not from another source, whether oral or written:

Mark 16.5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed. 6 But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you.” 8 So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.


Matthew 28.5 But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he[a] lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples, ‘He has been raised from the dead, and indeed he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him.’ This is my message for you.” 8 So they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came to him, took hold of his feet, and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers and sisters to go to Galilee; there they will see me.



Neirynck is arguing that Matthew essentially created Jesus appearance to the women at the tomb. Jesus essentially rpeats what the angel has already said in Mark (and partially in Matthew). John is thus dependent on Matthew for his story of Jesus' appearance to the woman (singular) at the tomb).

Best,

Ken
gryan
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by gryan »

@ Ken Olson. Thanks!

On another note of commonality:
Parallel namings of "Peter" by Jesus in Matt and John (and interpolated Galatians)

Matt 16:17-18
Jesus replied,
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah... And I tell you that you are Peter,
Μακάριος εἶ, Σίμων Βαριωνᾶ... κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος
and on this rock I will build my church...
καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν

Ehrman has written a fascinating essay on the meaning of the Greek words: Πέτρος and πέτρᾳ (“petros” in Greek is a masculine word meaning, a small stone, a pebble; and, “petra” is a feminine word meaning is a large crag, an enormous rock).

Ehrman writes:
If Jesus renamed Peter “Rock” he would have done so in his native language, Aramaic, not Greek. And Aramaic does not have two similar sounding words for “rock.” So Jesus would have said “You are Cephas, and upon this cephas I will build my church.” Only when the tradition got translated into Greek were two different words used (where the feminine Petra could not used as the name of a man).
https://ehrmanblog.org/finally-cephas-a ... lly-think/

Cf. John 1:42
Jesus looked at him and said,
"You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter).
Σίμων ὁ υἱὸς Ἰωάνου, σὺ κληθήσῃ Κηφᾶς (ὃ ἑρμηνεύεται Πέτρος).

So, given that background for Matt, was John interacting with Matt on the etymology of Cephas/Peter?

I'm thinking maybe the author of John had Matt (which has Jesus naming Peter "rock") and Galatians (which features a "Cephas", who is named "Peter" in what I regard as an interpolation which may have been added after the writing of Matt and John) on his writing desk and he also had a working knowledge of the translation issues described by Ehrman. And from those sources he constructed his etymology.

On the other hand, maybe the author John had access to an older Aramaic sayings of Jesus tradition which was known also to the author of Matt. After all, if John had known Matt, would he have changed "son of Jonah"to "son of John"?

I think whoever authored the "Peter" interpolation in Galaitans may have known Matt/John or the tradition behind both:

Gal 2:7-9 with a set of dots indicating the omission of the proposed interpolation, the text reads smoothly:
"...ἰδόντες [discerning] that I have been entrusted with the gospel… and γνόντες [knowing] the grace having been given to me, James and Cephas and John, the ones recognized to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, in order that we go to the Gentiles; but, they to the circumcision."

Gal 2:7-9 with the proposed interpolation [[shown in brackets]], the flow of thought seems choppy, and redundant:
"...ἰδόντες [discerning] that I have been entrusted with the gospel [[“of the uncircumcision just as Peter of the circumcision, for the One having worked in Peter for apostleship of the circumcision did also in me toward the Gentiles]] and γνόντες [knowing] the grace having been given to me, James and Cephas and John, the ones recognized to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, in order that we go to the Gentiles; but, they to the circumcision."
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mlinssen
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by mlinssen »

ϩⲛ ̅ ⲕⲟⲟⲩⲉ ⲁ ⲩ ϩⲉ ⲉϫⲛ ̅ ⲧ ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲁ
some(PL) another did they fall upon the(F) Rock

ⲡⲉϫⲁ ϥ ⲛⲁ ϥ` ⲛ̅ϭⲓ ⲥⲓⲙⲱⲛ ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ
said he to he viz. Simon Peter

Ehrman is a fool of course, the language of Chre/istianity is Coptic / Greek; Aramaic nor Hebrew played any role in any of it.
The Cephas is interesting though, it would be mighty interesting to trace that in the NHL
Charles Wilson
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by Charles Wilson »

1. Matthew 16: 17 - 19 (RSV):

[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

What is this Story about?
I'm beggin' ya', please consider that there is a STORY that was here and the Description was rewritten for Glorious Metaphysics.

Matthew 23: 13 (RSV):

[13] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Scribes and Pharisees are NOT spirit beings. These flesh and blood people shut the "Realm of Heaven" (Moffatt) against MEN (In this case, Priests).
WHY?

Luke 13: 23 - 25 (RSV):

[23] And some one said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them,
[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
[25] When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, `Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, `I do not know where you come from.'

Matthew 25: 1 -13 (RSV):

[1] "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
[2] Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[3] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them;
[4] but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
[5] As the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
[6] But at midnight there was a cry, `Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
[7] Then all those maidens rose and trimmed their lamps.
[8] And the foolish said to the wise, `Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
[9] But the wise replied, `Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.'
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, `Lord, lord, open to us.'
[12] But he replied, `Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
[13] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Matthew 18: 2 - 4 (RSV):

[2] And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,
[3] and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 13: 33 - 37 (RSV):

[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning [36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."

Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

Josephus, War..., 2, 1, 3:

"At this Archclaus was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival..."
***
There is a Story here, a Story that has been rewritten and Transvalued.

Peter is a child, son of a Priest, who saves a Priest at the Passover of 4 BCE. The Priest should be D-E-A-D. See also, Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse Five. Vonnegut should have died but survived by a miracle. The Priest escaped to a Settlement in Galilee, probably Jabnit, possibly Meiron. He returns 12 years later, at the request of Jairus. He goes to his death, knowing that he will die.

It is Peter who knows of the "Narrow Door" that leads to Life. He saves the Priest and is therefore the Keeper of the Keys.
Nonetheless, the Priest is Crucified 12 years later and the Aramaic charts his last words:

"My God, my God, for this was I spared?", a line that makes little sense as the outburst of a savior/god but fully makes sense as a survivor of the senseless murder of 3000+ in the Temple, only to be murdered 12 years later.

It's there, it really is there.

CW
gryan
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by gryan »

@Charles Wilson

I read all the words you wrote and quoted, but I personally am not even a little bit convinced that your quotation from "Josephus, War..., 2, 1, 3" has anything whatsoever to do with the quotations from the New Testament. No big mysterious story connects them.
Charles Wilson
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by Charles Wilson »

That's OK, Gryan. Thank you for looking.

BTW, I'm looking at Teeple (Lit. Or. of John) which examines the OP. He finds little to no Matthew/John parallels in the Critical Literature.
This places some tension between Mark and Matthew and places a posited "John-Mark" Unified Document further under the microscope.

Mo' later, I hope.

Best to you,

CW
gryan
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Re: In search of distinctive Matthew/John parallels

Post by gryan »

@Charles Wilson. That is an interestingly obscure book.

Re: The Literary Origin of the Gospel of John Paperback – January 1, 1974
by Howard M. Teeple

A reviewer wrote: "This 1974 monograph is Out of print in 2012 because in 1975 Robert Kysar gave a dismissive review, so this non-academic scholar was ignored. 30 years later Kysar retracted his opposition, but too late to gain interest...
Teeple (like Freed, Nicol, and Fortna) derived a source text in the Gospel of John from passages that had style similar to the Synoptics..."

https://www.amazon.com/Literary-Origin- ... 0914384007
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