better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

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Leucius Charinus
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by Leucius Charinus »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:01 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:12 pm The Christian State did not come into political existence until the supreme rule (325-337 CE) of the emperor Constantine ...
The Christian State did not come into existence until emperor Theodosius issued the Edict of Thessalonica in 380AD to establish Christianity as the official state religion, specifically the faith established by the Council of Nicaea in 325.
Some scholars argue this happened during the rule of Constantine.
EG

Constantine's Prohibition of Pagan Sacrifice

On the assumption that Eusebius' report [contained in Vita Constantini] is reliable and accurate, it may be argued that in 324 Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, and that he carried through a systematic and coherent reformation, at least in the eastern provinces which he conquered in 324 as a professed Christian in a Christian crusade against the last of the persecutor.

T. D. Barnes, The American Journal of Philology,
Vol. 105, No. 1 (Spring, 1984), pp. 69-72
https://www.jstor.org/stable/294627

StephenGoranson
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by StephenGoranson »

MrMacSon is correct that it was Theodosius who established Christianity as the official state religion.
That Constantine did so is a common error.
Oh wait, Pete--now you take Eusebius as "reliable and accurate"?
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MrMacSon
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by MrMacSon »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:10 am

Constantine's Prohibition of Pagan Sacrifice

On the assumption that Eusebius' report [contained in Vita Constantini] is reliable and accurate, it may be argued that in 324 Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, and that he carried through a systematic and coherent reformation, at least in the eastern provinces which he conquered in 324 as a professed Christian in a Christian crusade against the last of the persecutor.

T. D. Barnes, The American Journal of Philology,
Vol. 105, No. 1 (Spring, 1984), pp. 69-72
https://www.jstor.org/stable/294627


Nothing about 'Constantine-and-Christianity' is certain: anything and everything about 'Constantine-and-Christianity' ought to be taken with a grain of salt
dbz
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by dbz »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:01 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:12 pm The Christian State did not come into political existence until the supreme rule (325-337 CE) of the emperor Constantine ...
The Christian State did not come into existence until emperor Theodosius issued the Edict of Thessalonica in 380AD to establish Christianity as the official state religion ...
Followed by the period from the 5th to the 10th century, when over 99% of all ancient books and discoveries were lost.

• Carrier, Richard (28 September 2019). "Yes, the Dark Ages Really Were a Thing". Richard Carrier Blogs.
Yes, the Dark Ages happened. They occupied the period from the 5th to the 10th century. And they took five hundred more years to fully recover from, bringing Western civilization back by the 15th century to all the peak markers of accomplishment that it had achieved by the 2nd century. That’s a thousand years we were set back.

And yes, those ages were sufficiently dark in every measure to warrant the appellation. They dropped the Western world (and even, if less catastrophically, the Near Eastern world) to its lowest levels of decline by every measure not seen since before the rise of the Ancient Greeks who built up Western civilization on a foundation of democracy, technology, and science. The Dark Ages were an era we as human beings should look upon in shame, disappointment, and concern never to repeat what caused them or sustained them. They deserve the name.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by neilgodfrey »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:10 am
Constantine's Prohibition of Pagan Sacrifice

On the assumption that Eusebius' report [contained in Vita Constantini] is reliable and accurate, it may be argued that in 324 Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, and that he carried through a systematic and coherent reformation, at least in the eastern provinces which he conquered in 324 as a professed Christian in a Christian crusade against the last of the persecutor.

T. D. Barnes, The American Journal of Philology,
Vol. 105, No. 1 (Spring, 1984), pp. 69-72
https://www.jstor.org/stable/294627

A more recent discussion cited by Dirk Rohmann is
  • Wallraff, Martin. 2011. “Die antipaganen Maßnahmen Konstantins in der Darstellung des Euseb von Kaisareia.” In Spätantiker Staat und religiöser Konflikt, edited by Johannes Hahn, 7–18. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter
(another happily open access article book -- see Christianity, Book-Burning and Censorship in Late Antiquity -- by Dirk Rohmann, 2016. )

I'll quote the German of the relevant section (pp 9f) first then a DeepL translation:
Wir sind also gut beraten, wenn wir bei der Besprechung der antipaganen Maßnahmen möglichst sorgfältig differenzieren und darauf achten, welches Heidentum jeweils im Blick ist.

Ein erstes Beispiel ist die viel diskutierte Frage nach Konstantins Opferverbot. Euseb berichtet von einem diesbezüglichen Gesetz, doch hat diese Mitteilung immer schon den Argwohn der Forscher erregt, zumal Euseb es wohlweislich unterläßt, den genauen Wortlaut mitzuteilen. Er spricht von dem Verbot der Weissagung und hängt gleichsam beiläufig an, daß es nun überhaupt verboten sei, Opfer darzubringen. Erhalten hat sich ein solches Gesetz nicht; erst unter Konstantins Söhnen bald nach dem Tod des Vaters ist eine solche Vorschrift mit Sicherheit erlassen worden (und im Codex Theodosianus erhalten). Freilich bezieht sie sich auf eine vorausgehende Bestimmung des Vaters. Daß es also etwas dergleichen gab, sollte man nicht bezweifeln, doch werden wir nie erfahren, was genau dort verboten wurde. Meines Erachtens wird man der komplexen Quellenlage am besten dadurch gerecht, daß man ein differenziertes Opferverbot annimmt, also etwa das Verbot, blutige Opfer im Kontext des staatlichen Kultes zwingend vorzuschreiben, dies vielleicht sogar nur in einem konkreten Streitfall. Mit einem solchen Erlaß wäre unmittelbar nach dem Sieg über Licinius ein wichtiges Signal an die Christen verbunden gewesen, die genau an dieser Stelle in der Verfolgungszeit stets in Konflikt gerieten. Es wäre gut erklärbar, daß Euseb pauschalisierend und übertreibend darin ein generelles Opferverbot erblickt, während der (nicht minder tendenziöse) Libanios Jahre später schreiben kann, daß Konstantin gegen Opfer nicht vorging.
translation:
We are well advised, then, to differentiate as carefully as possible when discussing antipagan measures and to pay attention to which paganism is in view in each case.

A first example is the much-discussed question of Constantine's prohibition of sacrifice. Euseb reports a law in this regard, but this communication has always aroused the suspicion of scholars, especially since Euseb wisely omits to communicate the exact wording. He speaks of the prohibition of the prophecy and adds as it were casually that it is now forbidden at all to offer sacrifices. Such a law has not been preserved; only under Constantine's sons, soon after the death of the father, such a regulation was issued with certainty (and preserved in the Codex Theodosianus). Admittedly, it refers to a preceding provision of the father. That there was something of the sort, therefore, should not be doubted, but we shall never know what exactly was forbidden there. In my opinion, one can best do justice to the complex source situation by assuming a differentiated prohibition of sacrifices, i.e., for example, the prohibition of making bloody sacrifices mandatory in the context of state worship, perhaps even only in a concrete case of dispute. Immediately after the victory over Licinius, such a decree would have sent an important signal to the Christians, who always came into conflict at exactly this point during the time of persecution. It would be well explainable that Euseb, sweeping and exaggerating, sees in it a general prohibition of sacrifices, while the (no less tendentious) Libanios can write years later that Constantine did not take action against sacrifices.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Rohmann's reference, p. 54, to Wallraff's words:
Cod. Theod. 16.10.6 (law by Constantius and Julian in Milan). Constantine may have ruled against sacrifices (Cod. Theod. 16.10.2 alludes to this, however, without the threat of capital punishment), but this is debated; see recently Wallraff (2011), 9–10.
dbz
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by dbz »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:05 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:10 am
Constantine's Prohibition of Pagan Sacrifice

On the assumption that Eusebius' report [contained in Vita Constantini] is reliable and accurate...

Also
Watts, Edward J. (2020). The Final Pagan Generation: Rome's Unexpected Path to Christianity. Univ of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-37922-0. "Sacrifice continued despite Constantius's ban, temples remained open despite his injunction to the contrary, and the emperor himself even toured the (still open) temples in the city of Rome when he visited in 357. (p. 89.)"
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neilgodfrey
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by neilgodfrey »

dbz wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:40 am Also
Watts, Edward J. (2020). The Final Pagan Generation: Rome's Unexpected Path to Christianity. Univ of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-37922-0. "Sacrifice continued despite Constantius's ban, temples remained open despite his injunction to the contrary, and the emperor himself even toured the (still open) temples in the city of Rome when he visited in 357. (p. 89.)"
.... also offered open access by the author: https://www.academia.edu/10342539/The_F ... Generation
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John T
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by John T »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:14 am MrMacSon is correct that it was Theodosius who established Christianity as the official state religion.
That Constantine did so is a common error.
Oh wait, Pete--now you take Eusebius as "reliable and accurate"?
Yes. In 381 CE. ...Teodosius officially declared Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire, thus bringing the movement begun by Constantine the Great full circle...When Jesus Became God pg. 224.

It should be noted, Theodosius also changed the Nicene Creed to include the concept of the Trinity. He also banned pagan sacrifices and hunted down Manicheans and put them to death. Likewise, possessing Arian writings would become crimes punishable by death.

My how fast things change from Constantine to Teodosius when Constantine merely stopped the persecution of Christians to Teododsius hunting down and killing the church's opposition.

Sad, so sad.
dbz
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by dbz »

John T wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:14 am In 381 CE. ...Teodosius officially declared Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire, thus bringing the movement begun by Constantine the Great full circle...When Jesus Became God pg. 224.

It should be noted, Theodosius also changed the Nicene Creed to include the concept of the Trinity.
  • Also noteworthy, Paul was not a trinitarian!
Long Abstract

In this thesis I explore the emergence of the Christian triad with reference to two contemporary movements: Middle Platonism and Gnosticism. The earliest Christian text to enumerate a divine triad is Justin’s First Apology. This same triad is found in subsequent Christian texts and is ultimately reconfigured to become the Christian Trinity. I seek to explain the origins of this Christian triadology. There are two movements – Middle Platonism and Gnosticism – that were each part of the second century intellectual milieu, that each interacted with Christianity and that each posited ontological triads. On this basis these two movements are plausible candidates explain to the emergence of the Christian triad in the mid-second century.

I survey both Middle Platonism and Gnosticism to identify triads. These triads are analysed in terms of their structure and in terms of the function and ontological status of the individual constituents of these triads. This forms the basis of comparison with the Christian triad. In Middle Platonism, isosceles triads are diagnosed with a transcendent One above a pair of opposites; this pattern is found Eudorus, as well as Philo and Plutarch. Weak triadic structures are diagnosed in Plutarch and Atticus, who posit God and his emanating mind above the world soul; a similar pattern is found in Alcinous. The Neopythagorean interpretation of the Parmenides, perhaps as early as Thrasyllus, prompts a number of ontological triads, including the three Ones of Moderatus and the three gods of Numenius; this same pattern may be found in the Chaldean Oracles. Common to the triads of Plutarch and the Neopythagoreans is a hierarchical triad of transcendent God, mind and soul that will culminate in the three hypostases on Plotinus. It is this hierarchical triad that forms the best comparator with the Christian triad of the second century.

In Gnosticism and its cognate systems, I diagnose familial triads of father, mother and child in the Barbeolite tradition and three-male triads in the Ophite tradition. These triads may have pagan antecedents. There is also some evidence of the Platonic God-Mind- Soul triad within Gnostic systems. Early third century Gnostic texts contain a three-in- one triad, that is, a trinity, named the Triple-Powered One. This triad is later overwritten with the Neoplatonic Being-Mind-Life triad. None of the Gnostic triads seem plausible comparators for the Christian triad; there are some structural similarities but insignificant functional overlap to make influence credible.

I examine Christian thought prior to Justin and demonstrate that there was no ontological triad. This analysis focuses on the three constituents of what would become the Trinity. I demonstrate that God is identified as the Father, who, whilst considered transcendent, is also personally involved with creation and with believers. The Son is considered to be more than a man, born of a virgin and exalted to the heavens, but not identified with God; ontologically speaking, the Son is distinct. The Spirit is considered to be the power and presence of God, sometimes personified but not considered a distinct person. These Christians do not consider these three to be either a triad or a unity in ontological terms.

There is, however, a clear liturgical triad that I trace to primitive Christianity: the trine baptismal formula. I conclude that the baptismal formula was an expression of the Christian experience and thus of the faith to which candidates committed themselves to in baptism. The inclusion of the Spirit in the baptismal formula did not, for primitive Christians, denote a separate person or being, but a separate experience. This liturgical triad was to provide part of the basis for the emerging Christian triad. Justin is considered along with two Christian figures whom he directly influenced – Tatian and Athenagoras – who I have (somewhat artificially) grouped under the heading the “school of Justin”. These three are grouped for their shared thought pattern, which assists with the analysis of the emerging Christian triad by providing a wider set of datum. This is not to deny the innovations of these thinkers, which are also explored. I demonstrate that the “school of Justin” posited an ontological triad with a transcendent Father, a demiurgic and noetic Son, and immanent, world-penetrating Spirit. This is the conflation of the three referents of the trine baptismal formula with the three constituents of the Platonc God-Mind-Soul triad. I present evidence that Justin and Athenagoras engaged directly with Platonism, probably with Numenian and Plutarchian Platonism respectively. Tatian probably did not engage directly with Platonism but was influenced through Justin.

I also trace an argument developed by the “school of Justin” based upon the Platonic distinction between Being and Becoming. By identifying God as Being, identifying Being with that which is unbegotten, and identifying that which is unbegotten as creator, the “school of Justin” develops an argument for identifying the Son and the Spirit as God. This leads these thinkers to move beyond the Platonic precedent by unifying their hierarchical triad into a single substance. In so doing the “school of Justin” provides the basis for what will become the Christian Trinity.

Therefore I conclude that the Christian triad of the “school of Justin” emerged through a conflation of the trine baptismal formula with an ontological triad of Middle Platonism, which resulted in the three referents of the baptismal formula being embued with new functions and ontological status. Whilst emerging as a hierarchical triad, the logic of Platonic ontology when combined with Christian tradition required the sharp distinction between God as Being and all other things resulting in a Christian triad that was also a unity. This new triad became fixed as a central tenet of Christianity.

dbz
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Re: better critiques of mythicism than by Tim O'Neill

Post by dbz »

"Mythicism, The Celestial Christ | Who Was Paul's Jesus? Dr. Richard Carrier & Dr. Robert M. Price". YouTube. MythVision Podcast. 11 OCT 2019. @time:00:05:20

Code: Select all

[5:18] ...Christians always say if you don't believe in the Trinity you're not a real Christian. Well Paul was not a Trinitarian. Paul was very clear that he does not think God and Jesus are identical that Jesus is a created being a subordinate being to whom God assigns God's powers..
[youtube]https://youtu.be/QvZtmNsCvg4?t=320[/youtube]
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