ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2817
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by Leucius Charinus »

ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ
Hereafter XS and XRS:

The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip
  • If thou say ‘I’m a Hebrew —no one will be moved. If thou say ‘I’m a Roman’—no one will be disturbed. If thou say ‘I’m a Greek, a barbarian, a slave, a freeman’—no one will be troubled. If thou [say] ‘I’m a CHRESTIAN°’—[everyone] shall heed. (53)

    IS the XS beguiled the whole place” (124)
Translation with line numbers (mostly) follows:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8641&p=140226#p140226

One Christ or Two Different Christs?

DATA:

* When the XS came -- When one becomes alive to the truth one is in danger of dying. He is alive since the day that the XS came - the system was invented, the cities are constructed, the dead carried out. (4,5) ///

* XS is the perfect person, brings manna, has all things within – human, angel, mystery – including the father (15) /// XRS came to rectify himself to the separation (86). XRS is a revealed name / common noun. (20)

* XS is the Greek “messiah” (20) /// XRS is the Aramaic / Hebrew / SYROS “messiah” (20)

* Born through the sacred spirit and we are reborn through the XS (80) /// The XRS ransoms some, saves some, atones some (8)

* XS so called from the XRISMA not baptism, Christians are so called from the XRISMA (101) /// If a ChrEstian receives the XRISMA in the power of the cross and apostles he becomes a XRS (72)

* XS is the measured (51) /// “Both the XRS and also the measured” implies XRS is not the measured? (51) IS is the measurement.

* IS the XS beguiled the entire place and did not burden anyone. Therefore, blest is this perfected person of this kind; for this one is the Logos. (124)

The proposition is that although the ligatures XS and XRS are both translated as "Christ" the above data suggests that two different and contrasting meanings are revealed when the use of the two ligatures is compared in context. (XS /// XRS)

Any thoughts?
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by MrMacSon »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:53 pm
The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip
  • If thou say ‘I’m a Hebrew' —no one will be moved. If thou say ‘I’m a Roman’—no one will be disturbed. If thou say ‘I’m a Greek, a barbarian, a slave, a freeman’—no one will be troubled. If thou [say] ‘I’m a CHRESTIAN°’—[everyone] shall heed ... (53)

    IS the XS beguiled the whole place” (124)
The full quote of (53) is


If thou say ‘I’m a IOYDAI' no one will be moved. If thou say, ‘I’m a Roman’ no one will be disturbed. If thou say ‘I’m a Greek, a barbarian, a slave, a freeman’ no one will be troubled. If thou [say] ‘I’m a CHRESTIAN’ [everyone] shall heed. May it occur that I have [received from him] in this manner, this which [the worldly] shall not be able to withstand when [they hear] this name!


I presume ['received from him'] is a guess due to a lacuna (?)
Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by MrMacSon »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:53 pm
ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ

Hereafter XS and XRS:


One Christ or Two Different Christs?

DATA:

* XS is the measured (51) // “Both the XRS and also the measured” implies XRS is not the measured? (51) IS is the measurement.


(51) in full:


The APOSTOLOS who preceded us called (him) thus: IHS the NAZWRAIOS MESSIAS - this is IHS the NAZWRAIOS XS. The last name is the XS, the first is IS, that in the middle is the NAZARHNOS. ‘MESSIAS’ has two SHMASIA: both the XRS and also the measured. IS in 'EBRAIOS is the atonement. ‘NAZARA’ is the ALHTEIA, therefore the NAZARHNOS is the ALHTEIA. The XS is the measured, the NAZARHNOS and IS are the measurement.


What is SHMASIA ?

What is ALHTEIA ?

Why is the NAZARHNOS being 'the ALHTEIA' dependent on NAZARA being the ALHTEIA ??
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2817
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by Leucius Charinus »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:02 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:53 pm
The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip
  • If thou say ‘I’m a Hebrew' —no one will be moved. If thou say ‘I’m a Roman’—no one will be disturbed. If thou say ‘I’m a Greek, a barbarian, a slave, a freeman’—no one will be troubled. If thou [say] ‘I’m a CHRESTIAN°’—[everyone] shall heed ... (53)

    IS the XS beguiled the whole place” (124)
The full quote of (53) is


If thou say ‘I’m a IOYDAI' no one will be moved. If thou say, ‘I’m a Roman’ no one will be disturbed. If thou say ‘I’m a Greek, a barbarian, a slave, a freeman’ no one will be troubled. If thou [say] ‘I’m a CHRESTIAN’ [everyone] shall heed. May it occur that I have [received from him] in this manner, this which [the worldly] shall not be able to withstand when [they hear] this name!


I presume ['received from him'] is a guess due to a lacuna (?)
Martijn will have to respond to that.

I have a question as well - this one about the brackets around (as a martyr) in line 4

4. A 'EThNIKOS does not die, for he has never lived so that he could die.a Whoever has trusted° the truth (became) alive—and this-one is in danger of dying (as a martyr), for he is alive since the day that the XS came. 5. The system is invented, the cities are constructed, the dead carried out.

Is this a comment by the translator (Brown) in brackets or does the Coptic include the text "as a martyr"?

ETA

ANSWER = YES


I checked https://www.metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph004.html

It looks like Patterson Brown thought of the legend of the martyrs at that point and added his thought to the text. The text runs instead more like this:

4. A 'EThNIKOS / does not die, for he has never lived so that he could die. Whoever has trusted° the truth (became) alive—and this-one is in danger of dying, for he is alive since the day that the XS came. 5. The system is invented, the cities are constructed, the dead carried out.

User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2817
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by Leucius Charinus »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:20 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:53 pm
ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ

Hereafter XS and XRS:


One Christ or Two Different Christs?

DATA:

* XS is the measured (51) // “Both the XRS and also the measured” implies XRS is not the measured? (51) IS is the measurement.


(51) in full:


The APOSTOLOS who preceded us called (him) thus: IHS the NAZWRAIOS MESSIAS - this is IHS the NAZWRAIOS XS. The last name is the XS, the first is IS, that in the middle is the NAZARHNOS. ‘MESSIAS’ has two SHMASIA: both the XRS and also the measured. IS in 'EBRAIOS is the atonement. ‘NAZARA’ is the ALHTEIA, therefore the NAZARHNOS is the ALHTEIA. The XS is the measured, the NAZARHNOS and IS are the measurement.


What is SHMASIA ?

What is ALHTEIA ?

Why is the NAZARHNOS being 'the ALHTEIA' dependent on NAZARA being the ALHTEIA ??
No idea at the moment Mac. You could see how other translators deal with these terms however many translations don't have line numbering.

There are a number of translations including the following.


As we may have seen in these discussions, some of these translations are deficient in various ways. There are some questions to be asked that may have not been asked before. My intention here is to start with the name of Christ or rather the runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip.

To date the Philip translators never explicitly include in their output a consistent treatment of these two ligatures XS and XRS which they are translating as "CHRIST".

I would presume that it is being assumed by the translators that XS and XRS are both supposed to represent the same One True Christ. But the OP questions this assumption by noting that the two terms are contrasting one another, and are associated with a different set of characteristics.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:25 am
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:02 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:53 pm
The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip
  • If thou say ‘I’m a Hebrew' —no one will be moved. If thou say ‘I’m a Roman’—no one will be disturbed. If thou say ‘I’m a Greek, a barbarian, a slave, a freeman’—no one will be troubled. If thou [say] ‘I’m a CHRESTIAN°’—[everyone] shall heed ... (53)

    IS the XS beguiled the whole place” (124)
The full quote of (53) is


If thou say ‘I’m a IOYDAI' no one will be moved. If thou say, ‘I’m a Roman’ no one will be disturbed. If thou say ‘I’m a Greek, a barbarian, a slave, a freeman’ no one will be troubled. If thou [say] ‘I’m a CHRESTIAN’ [everyone] shall heed. May it occur that I have [received from him] in this manner, this which [the worldly] shall not be able to withstand when [they hear] this name!


I presume ['received from him'] is a guess due to a lacuna (?)
Martijn will have to respond to that.

I have a question as well - this one about the brackets around (as a martyr) in line 4

4. A 'EThNIKOS does not die, for he has never lived so that he could die.a Whoever has trusted° the truth (became) alive—and this-one is in danger of dying (as a martyr), for he is alive since the day that the XS came. 5. The system is invented, the cities are constructed, the dead carried out.

Is this a comment by the translator (Brown) in brackets or does the Coptic include the text "as a martyr"?

ETA

ANSWER = YES


I checked https://www.metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph004.html

It looks like Patterson Brown thought of the legend of the martyrs at that point and added his thought to the text. The text runs instead more like this:

4. A 'EThNIKOS / does not die, for he has never lived so that he could die. Whoever has trusted° the truth (became) alive—and this-one is in danger of dying, for he is alive since the day that the XS came. 5. The system is invented, the cities are constructed, the dead carried out.

There's a thing you can easily do without any knowledge of Coptic, as long as you can read Greek letters (I'm not talking about understanding Greek, this bar is really low)

1. Observe e.g. https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph053.html
2. Notice the strange font in the interlinear, which can be fixed when you're on PC: https://metalogos.org/index.html - look for TTF fonts
3. Every page has the transcription from the MS itself, in this case it's https://metalogos.org/files/till/w-till-10.gif and every page always has that at the bottom in a footnote, e.g. "1Till's Coptic text: w-till-10.gif." in this case

Now, this way you can read what the MS actually says, and you can verify the transcription of Paterson Brown via that of Walter Till.
Paterson Brown also has great help pages such as those at the bottom of https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin.html

It really pains me to see how neglected his superb work is, especially when I see how much attention and weight is given to the worthless distortions and falsifications brought to us by the Lambdins and Layton's of this world. The name dropping of the Perrins and DeConicks of this world, utterly useless and clueless idiots who's somehow not only get away but even are praised for their unsubstantiated nonsense

I know that such is his fate, and it will be mine as well

That also is how the Churchian game works
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:47 am Martijn Linssen
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8641&p=140226#p140226

Thomas Paterson Brown
https://www.metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin.html
To be precise, my "translation of Philip" is verbatim that of Paterson Brown yet I've transcribed the issue all ligatures and also a few Greek loanwords. Why? To help facilitate fleshing out XS vs XRS ans such, and to remove the latter of obfuscation that Paterson Brown adds.
I should have left it all alone as I'm almost done with my own Philip translation but I'm glad that I did anyway as Pete is spot on here: there is a great difference - according to Philip - betweenXS and XRS, for instance
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:20 am
[Gospel of Philip] (51) in full:


The APOSTOLOS who preceded us called (him) thus: IHS the NAZWRAIOS MESSIAS - this is IHS the NAZWRAIOS XS. The last name is the XS, the first is IS, that in the middle is the NAZARHNOS. ‘MESSIAS’ has two SHMASIA: both the XRS and also the measured. IS in 'EBRAIOS is the atonement. ‘NAZARA’ is the ALHTEIA, therefore the NAZARHNOS is the ALHTEIA. The XS is the measured, the NAZARHNOS and IS are the measurement.


What is SHMASIA ?

What is ALHTEIA ?



The apostles who were before us had these names for him: "Jesus, the Nazorean, Messiah", that is, "Jesus, the Nazorean, the Christ". The last name is "Christ", the first is "Jesus", that in the middle is "the Nazarene". "Messiah" has two meanings, both "the Christ" and "the measured". "Jesus" in Hebrew is "the redemption". "Nazara" is "the Truth". "The Nazarene" then, is "the Truth". "Christ" [...] has been measured. "The Nazarene" and "Jesus" are they who have been measured.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html


So SHMASIA = meanings = doh, obvious


ALHTEIA = Truth

. . ."Nazara" is "the Truth". "The Nazarene," then, is "the Truth" .. http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html


. . .‘NAZARA’ is the ALHTEIA, therefore the NAZARHNOS is the ALHTEIA.

User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2817
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:00 am
There's a thing you can easily do without any knowledge of Coptic, as long as you can read Greek letters (I'm not talking about understanding Greek, this bar is really low)

1. Observe e.g. https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph053.html
2. Notice the strange font in the interlinear, which can be fixed when you're on PC: https://metalogos.org/index.html - look for TTF fonts
3. Every page has the transcription from the MS itself, in this case it's https://metalogos.org/files/till/w-till-10.gif and every page always has that at the bottom in a footnote, e.g. "1Till's Coptic text: w-till-10.gif." in this case

Now, this way you can read what the MS actually says, and you can verify the transcription of Paterson Brown via that of Walter Till.
Thanks for these tips. I have archived them.
Paterson Brown also has great help pages such as those at the bottom of https://metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin.html
Nifty
It really pains me to see how neglected his superb work is, especially when I see how much attention and weight is given to the worthless distortions and falsifications brought to us by the Lambdins and Layton's of this world. The name dropping of the Perrins and DeConicks of this world, utterly useless and clueless idiots who's somehow not only get away but even are praised for their unsubstantiated nonsense

I know that such is his fate, and it will be mine as well

That also is how the Churchian game works
Just remember what Arnaldo Momigliano had to say about the biblical scholars:


p.3

Principles of Historical research need not be different
from criteria of common sense. And common sense teaches
us that outsiders must not tell insiders what they should
do. I shall therefore not discuss directly what biblical
scholars are doing. They are the insiders.

ON PAGANS, JEWS, and CHRISTIANS
--- Arnaldo Momigliano, 1987


Chapter 1:
Biblical Studies and Classical Studies
Simple Reflections upon Historical Method
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/arnal ... STIANS.htm

Allow the Churchian game players to be the insiders to the unspoken mystery of the historical origins of the NT literature and its cult. Remain as an outsider looking in as a classical historian not wedded to the dogma. Retain an open mind, since "certainty brings insanity". Focus on the primary evidence. These are time capsules waiting to be objectively interpreted.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: ⲭⲥ & ⲭⲣⲥ: The Coptic Runes of Christ in the Gospel of Philip

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:29 am
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:20 am
[Gospel of Philip] (51) in full:

The APOSTOLOS who preceded us called (him) thus: IHS the NAZWRAIOS MESSIAS - this is IHS the NAZWRAIOS XS. The last name is the XS, the first is IS, that in the middle is the NAZARHNOS. ‘MESSIAS’ has two SHMASIA: both the XRS and also the measured. IS in 'EBRAIOS is the atonement. ‘NAZARA’ is the ALHTEIA, therefore the NAZARHNOS is the ALHTEIA. The XS is the measured, the NAZARHNOS and IS are the measurement.

What is SHMASIA ?

What is ALHTEIA ?



The apostles who were before us had these names for him: "Jesus, the Nazorean, Messiah", that is, "Jesus, the Nazorean, the Christ". The last name is "Christ", the first is "Jesus", that in the middle is "the Nazarene". "Messiah" has two meanings, both "the Christ" and "the measured". "Jesus" in Hebrew is "the redemption". "Nazara" is "the Truth". "The Nazarene" then, is "the Truth". "Christ" [...] has been measured. "The Nazarene" and "Jesus" are they who have been measured.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html


So SHMASIA[/size] = meanings = doh, obvious


ALHTEIA[/size] = Truth

. . ."Nazara" is "the Truth". "The Nazarene," then, is "the Truth" .. http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html


. . .‘NAZARA’ is the ALHTEIA, therefore the NAZARHNOS is the ALHTEIA.

Mac, I have transcribed Paterson Brown so that we can remove the layer of obfuscation and see what's behind:

The APOSTOLOS who preceded us called (him) thus: IHS the NAZWRAIOS MESSIAS - this is IHS the NAZWRAIOS XS. The last name is the XS, the first is IS, that in the middle is the NAZARHNOS. ‘MESSIAS’ has two SHMASIA: both the XRS and also the measured. IS in 'EBRAIOS is the atonement. ‘NAZARA’ is the ALHTEIA, therefore the NAZARHNOS is the ALHTEIA. The XS is the measured, the NAZARHNOS and IS are the measurement.

The way I have transcribed it is the way in which Perseus LSJ accepts the words, for instance

Dictionary Entry Lookup
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... shmasi%2Fa

Basically I only do that for Greek loanwords, so that I can see where Thomas and Philip overlap there
Post Reply