Richard Carrier reviews Chris Hansen's review of Richard Carrier's book

[Leucius Charinus]

Paul and James only exist in fiction and fantasy. Carrier and Hansen are utterly unable to understand that these fabulous stories only reflect much later challenges between derivative heresies and hold no historical value.

Although I can agree with the above - that James and Peter, Paul and Mary etc etc etc are entirely fabricated - am sure we would have substantial disagreements about just how late these "later challenges between derivative heresies" actually appeared in the historical record AFTER the fiction and fantasy of the church [industry] manuscripts is removed from the table of historical evidence.

Tacitus and Suetonius are late forgeries, completely useless as early Christian history.

So too is the Pliny/Trajan letter exchange as well as the entire notion of the persecution of the "Early Christians" by any pagan emperors.

FWIW here are my notes:

TACITUS:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/author_Tacitus.htm

PLINY/TRAJAN:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/autho ... Trajan.htm

SUETONIUS:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/author_suetonius.htm

PERSECUTIONS:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/imper ... stians.htm

[dbz]

• Carrier (31 July 2022). "Chris Hansen on Jesus from Outer Space". Richard Carrier Blogs.

[Misrepresenting the Gods] Hansen will never accept well-demonstrated facts that they cannot abide being true, like that quite a large number of gods, demigods, and heroes in the Roman era were understood by a lot of people as having literally died, been dead, and risen from the dead to be alive again

Jonathan Z. Smith spent a lifetime trying to get us beyond the taboo of suggesting Christians may have borrowed some customs and beliefs from contemporaneous pagan religions. Smith said we should look for analogies and comparisons and we should shun the apologetic, untenable idea of uniqueness. Stop worrying about who borrowed from whom, and start looking for shared ideas and cross-fertilization.

However, the Bauckham camp seems to have won decisively. For any facet of Christianity, if a modern scholar finds any possible link to Judaism, that must be where it came from. If it sounds remotely close to something in the OT or any Jewish writing, you can stop looking. There are never any Christian precursors in the pagan traditions, and anyone who says differently must be laughed out of the room.

• Widowfield, Tim (31 December 2020). "Did Jonathan Z. Smith Really Not Understand Ideal Types? (Part 4)". Vridar.

Smith held that the famous “dying and rising god” mytheme was a modern myth—not an ancient one. However Carrier asserts that per the Dying-and-Rising God Mytheme, Smith “didn’t even address 99% of the evidence for it, but flat out ignored almost all of it”.

While Smith clearly retreated from the “dying and rising god” mytheme, Widowfield observes that, "Smith doubted the usefulness of the dying-and-rising-god motif because it was too Christian-centric and carried too much historical baggage — with scholars who worried about who adopted what from whom instead of what it all meant to adherents."

Carrier explains what Smith actually claims, contra Ehrman!

• "Dr. Carrier vs Dr. Ehrman: Dying and Rising God Mytheme". YouTube. @time:00:02:15 Godless Engineer. 16 Feb 2022.

[Giuseppe]

I should openly state that I disagree with both Carrier and Hansen on the issue of the historicity of Paul and as a result most if not all of the substantial arguments from both sides in the exchange on the review of Jesus from Outer Space are of little consequence to my overall position.

according to at least two past mythicists who denied the historicity of Paul, Jesus was however crucified in outer space: Bolland and Lublinski.
Essentially their argument was the chronological priority of the sects (Ophites, Perates, Naassenes etc) who started their speculations with etherodox interpretations of the book of Genesis, with the Serpent as Jesus himself or the direct killer of Jesus.

Once the genesiac Serpent is allowed to play an active role in the original myth (as the same victim or the same killer), then by need the myth places the crucifixion before the creation of the world, i.e. in outer space.

For example, the myth of Simon Magus who saves Helen in a bordel is the euhemerization of and old myth where the Savior descends in lower heavens to free the lost Sophia from the archontic threat, and since Sophia is compared to Israel, a lost Sophia to an Israel in exile, then the Savior is the OT Joshua who defends Israel against his enemies.

So the death in outer space remains a serious possibility with or without Paul. The authentic Paul allows obviously to have more certainty about the thesis.

[Leucius Charinus]

So the death in outer space remains a serious possibility with or without Paul. The authentic Paul allows obviously to have more certainty about the thesis.

IMO moving the death of Jesus into outer space is not going to advance our knowledge of the terrestrial history of Christian origins despite the theses of Doherty and Carrier. Or despite the assertions of the church that Christian heretics were to be regarded as aliens. IMO a death in "Middle-Earth" - where Bilbo Baggins is known to have preserved a collection of letters - also remains a serious possibility.