Irenaeus attests to Chrestianity being in the lead

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mlinssen
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Irenaeus attests to Chrestianity being in the lead

Post by mlinssen »

Let me quote Irenaeus on the subject of the four gospels:

Irenaeus - Adv. haer. III 11,8

And therefore the Gospels are in accord with these things, among which Christ Jesus is seated. For that according to John relates His original, effectual, and glorious generation from the Father, thus declaring, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 Also, all things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made. For this reason, too, is that Gospel full of all confidence, for such is His person. But that according to Luke, taking up [His] priestly character, commenced with Zacharias the priest offering sacrifice to God. For now was made ready the fatted calf, about to be immolated for the finding again of the younger son. Matthew, again, relates His generation as a man, saying, The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham; and also, The birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise. This, then, is the Gospel of His humanity; for which reason it is, too, that [the character of] a humble and meek man is kept up through the whole Gospel. Mark, on the other hand, commences with [a reference to] the prophetical spirit coming down from on high to men, saying, The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as it is written in Esaias the prophet,— pointing to the winged aspect of the Gospel; and on this account he made a compendious and cursory narrative, for such is the prophetical character. And the Word of God Himself used to converse with the ante-Mosaic patriarchs, in accordance with His divinity and glory; but for those under the law he instituted a sacerdotal and liturgical service. Afterwards, being made man for us, He sent the gift of the celestial Spirit over all the earth, protecting us with His wings

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103311.htm

The order is evident and clear:
  1. John
  2. Luke
  3. Matthew
  4. Mark
Why that order, and why not the poster child up front?
Because there always is a time when and where the usurper still has to play a modest role, in the background, while working on his grand evil scheme - and we're witnessing it right here

John is evidently Chrestian with his abundance of The Father, Luke is *Ev "done right" and it is Matthew who took care of the latter - and Mark must have felt very discarded with his trailing role whereas it was him who broke in the Chrestian horse; and marvellously successfully I might add

On topic: two hostile witnesses and two friendly ones - and with this order it is evident that Irenaeus is clutching at straws here, hanging on by a proverbial fingernail.
So he managed to counter the 2 gospels with 2 of his own, hence 4 was a given number and he would likely have ditched Mark if he hadn't been desperately dependent on at the very least matching John and Luke - and who knows what else circulated on the Chrestian side, Philip would certainly have been part of that.
So perhaps this 4 was even worse, he simply had to throw in Luke by redacting *Ev because he couldn't have just John and then his Matthew to counter that; he needed overweight, an upper hand

So Irenaeus threw in *Ev as well but only his own version of it; two birds with one stone. Mark at the back for good measure, and there we have it: 4 gospels "printed" by the Church of which the first two would be recognised by most Chrestians who'd lose interest after the first half page perhaps.
A nice cock&bull story to go along with it, and who knows, people may still fall for it even well over a dozen centuries later...
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Irenaeus attests to Chrestianity being in the lead

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:19 am Let me quote Irenaeus on the subject of the four gospels:

Irenaeus - Adv. haer. III 11,8
Do you happen to know the manuscript source for this citation from Irenaeus - Adv. haer. III ?
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Re: Irenaeus attests to Chrestianity being in the lead

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:06 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:19 am Let me quote Irenaeus on the subject of the four gospels:

Irenaeus - Adv. haer. III 11,8
Do you happen to know the manuscript source for this citation from Irenaeus - Adv. haer. III ?
Correct question, the answer is "no" but it'll likely be some 10th CE MS

Your theory can't be saved Pete, just accept that.
The Romans tried hard to game that there was no Chrestianity and that they were the original movement, and they faked the entire "line of witnesses" from John Mark / Papias straight to whoever, sure
Nothing they say should be trusted, sure.
But if you pay attention to details, if you read between the li (n)es, you can catch them red-handed

And that's how we use their lies and falsifications.
But all of their writings and some or all of the NHL falsified in one go out even over the course of a few decades? You have never proven even the slightest of that, and the texts themselves disprove all of that

Time to say goodbye to something you held onto for 17 years
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Secret Alias
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Re: Irenaeus attests to Chrestianity being in the lead

Post by Secret Alias »

The order is different throughout Bk 3
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mlinssen
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Re: Irenaeus attests to Chrestianity being in the lead

Post by mlinssen »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:20 pm The order is different throughout Bk 3
Well then please be so kind as to lay out that order, with quotes and references, and we'll have something to discuss
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Irenaeus attests to Chrestianity being in the lead

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:31 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:06 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:19 am Let me quote Irenaeus on the subject of the four gospels:

Irenaeus - Adv. haer. III 11,8
Do you happen to know the manuscript source for this citation from Irenaeus - Adv. haer. III ?
Correct question, the answer is "no" but it'll likely be some 10th CE MS
More likely significantly later than the 10th CE and in Latin MSS not Greek MSS (the language in which Irenaeus is supposed to have authored in). Book 3 contains a "rebuttal based on apostolic succession and tradition passed down of the faith; defense of the incarnation of Jesus; defense of the virgin birth". Full on Churchianity.
Your theory can't be saved Pete, just accept that.
The theory that Irenaeus is a forgery by the church industry of the 4th and/or subsequent centuries has not yet been examined let alone rejected other than in the assertion that the (hazardous) reconstruction of P.Oxy.405 is a genuine fragment from Irenaeus.

DCH has summarised some of this:
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4392
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