Question for Mythicists: Did Jesus Wear Clothes?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Question for Mythicists: Did Jesus Wear Clothes?

Post by Secret Alias »

Another thing to consider is the so-called 'flying Jesus' of Baarda. Baarda wasn't a mythicist. He was a friend of mine (as much as anyone can be a friend with an academic). https://www.jstor.org/stable/1584033. I think it is a fair question to ask - did the 'Jesus' who flew down from heaven and flew up and down during the course of the gospel have clothing. Remember unlike our modern 'shirts' and 'pants' which could be used in aerial ascents and descents I wonder how a mere 'garment' could remain 'on' someone if he zoomed up in the air:


James Bond here has a belt and a buttoned suit. Also in the Marcionite version of events Jesus passes through the crowd like Vision:


Obviously Vision has clothes here. But it must be only owing to the fact that if he was naked kids wouldn't have been allowed to read the comic or watch the movie.

I don't like KK's dogmatism. I think it's from being German. My Dad's family are like a stone throw from Leipzig. Sure people change. But I always have memories of ALL my German family members especially my Omi waving her hands and wrinkling their face whenever a subject they don't like comes up.

Surely Marcion thinking that 'Jesus' could pass through objects implies he was naked. Surely the Diatessaron implying 'Jesus' could fly implied he was naked. Surely surely surely. I can think of over 10 other examples.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Question for Mythicists: Did Jesus Wear Clothes?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:21 am
When the woman heard about Jesus, she came up through the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak. 28 For she kept saying, “If only I touch His garments, I will be healed.”
Right but clearly the 'garment' is supernatural. Right? You're missing the part about 'power' being contained in the 'garment.'
I apologize for butting in, SA, but this is too important to let pass.

You are correct about the "Supernatural" aspect of the garments. It is the nature of this "Supernatural Aspect" that shows what has happened to the Original Document.

This is a document about the PRIESTHOOD. What covers the nakedness of the people? Follow the Story of the Priestly Garments in the OT and through Josephus and the keeping of the garments in Antonia.

The Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood Story is entirely Symbolic. As Joseph Heller once wrote, "Something Happened". Symbolic Assignments are seasoned to taste but here the Symbolism is in the open. Judea has been bleeding for 12 years and ONLY THE PRIESTHOOD is left to save the country. Notice the vicious irony: The Original is not about a savior/god but instead has been rewritten into one.

This is a Political Movement (See: Maccoby). A Religious Movement to set the country aright has been decimated and 12 years later, the realization is there: Only the PRIESTHOOD can save the country.

In Mark, there is the companion story woven into the Woman's Tale: The Daughter of Jairus is dead and...No!... she is not dead, only sleeping:
"Arise, little girl and walk".

She is 12 years old.

So, yes, the garments are special. They point to the Priesthood and the garments they wear cover the nakedness of the people in front of God.

Mark 6: 56 (RSV):

[56] And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or country, they laid the sick in the market places, and besought him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment; and as many as touched it were made well.

Best to you, SA,

CW
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billd89
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Re: Unserious Question for OP

Post by billd89 »

When you dream of someone, a person you know (or knew), are they wearing clothes?
AND FROM WHAT STORE, TELL ME!!!

I suppose Kanadians dream of everyone wearing Roots, Because.
Secret Alias
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Re: Question for Mythicists: Did Jesus Wear Clothes?

Post by Secret Alias »

I've never owned any Roots clothes TBH. As I said at the beginning. There is the possibility that the 'mythicism' means self-consciously made up. But I don't think the gospel was ever conceived that way. If Jesus was a god then he likely didn't wear clothes.
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billd89
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Re: Koinobioi ? Ancient Jewish Nudists of Egypt???

Post by billd89 »

Kirkus Reviews gives a commendation to LaValley (a propagandist of naturalism), but his books are pricey and I don't know there's anything useful for my work. He does have a bit by Blavatsky (1877), which is obviously free online:

But we must proceed in our work of showing the various origins of Christianity, as also the sources from which Jesus derived his own ideas of God and humanity.

The Koinobioi lived in Egypt, where Jesus passed his early youth. They were usually confounded with the Therapeutae, who were, however, only a branch of this widely-spread society. Such is the opinion of Godfrey Higgins and Dr. Rebold. After the downfall of the principal sanctuaries, which had already begun in the days of Plato, the many different sects, such as the Gymnosophists and the Magi - from whom Clearchus very erroneously derives the former — the Pythagoreans, the Sufîs, and the Rishis of Kashmir, instituted a kind of international and universal Freemasonry among their esoteric societies. “These Rishis,” says Higgins, “are the Essenians, Carmelites, or Nazarites of the temple.” 788 “That occult science known by ancient priests under the name of regenerating fire,” says Dr. Rebold, “... is a science that for more than 3000 years was the peculiar possession of the (Indian and Egyptian) priesthood, into the knowledge of which Moses was initiated at Heliopolis, where he was educated; and Jesus among the Essenian priests of [Egypt or] Judaea; and by which these two great reformers, particularly the latter, wrought many of the miracles mentioned in the Scriptures.” 789

Theosophy is kooky, but not everything in their literature is wrong. Who were the Koinobioi (according to whatever thesis Madame B. advocates)?

Wherefore I have corrected the orthographic abominations in my excerpt below; see James Martin Peebles, Seers of the Ages: Embracing Spiritualism, Past and Present [1869], p.98:
These Essenes were sometimes denominated physicians of the soul, or Therapeutae; and, "residing both in Egypt and Judea, they probably spoke, or had their sacred books in Chaldea. They were Pythagorians to all intents and purposes, as is proven by their forms, ceremonies and doctrines. **If the Pythagorians, or Coenobitae, as they are called by that famous Neo-Platonian philosopher, Jamblichus, were Buddhists, then the Essenians were originally Buddhists. A branch of these Essenians, termed, Koinobii, lived in Egypt, on the shores of Lake Parembole, in Monasteries." (Anacalypsis: an Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis..., Vol. 1 [1833], p.748).

Débôd (this particular "Parembole") is in Nubia; I don't believe this is correct for the group meant.
Image

"Parembole" means armed camp (suggesting 'fortress'), and in other sources "Lake Parembole" indicates Lake Mareotis, where the Therapeutae were! I have demonstrated there was a fortress in the vicinity of the Philo's Therapeutae c.300 BC and another boundary fortress built abit later still stands.

(con't.) pp.98-99:
These quotations show the intimate relations, if not direct identity of the Gymnosophists, Yogis, Hierophants, Pythagoreans, Essenes, Magi, Sufis and Rishis. Of these latter, Ayeen Akberry, writes: "The most respectable people in this country are the Rishis, who, although they do not
suffer themselves to be fettered by traditions, are, doubtless, true worshipers of God. They revile not any other sect, and ask nothing of any one; they plant the road with fruit trees, to furnish the traveler with refreshments. They abstain from flesh, and have no intercourse with the other sex." There are nearly two thousand of this sect in Kashmir. Higgins adds: "These Rishis, or Rashees, same as Sufis, are the Essenes, Carmelites, or Nazarites of the temple." Quoting a passage from the learned and eminent Burnet, in confirmation, he further says: "I was not a little gratified to find that the close relation between the Hindus and the more respectable of all the Jewish sects, the Essenes, of which I have not the slightest doubt that Jesus Christ was a member, had been observed by this very learned man, almost a hundred years ago, before the late blaze of light from the East had shone upon us." (Anacalypsis: an Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis..., Vol. 2 [1836], p.50.)

Old India, the mother of civilizations, colonizing Egypt, necessarily bore her sacred mysteries there. Egypt, celebrating them in her pyramidal chambers, transferred them, in a somewhat modified form, to Persia and Greece, and, through Moses, to the more intellectual of the Jewish
people; these, joining by initiation, were called Therapeutae, and Essenes.

Ya, nah: I don't believe that linkage. But it's been a sort of hot topic in cultural studies lately: for example, see this BA thesis [2011], "The Bare Necessities: Ascetic Indian Sages in Philostratus' Life of Apollonius" LINK.

Who were the Koinobioi -- radical Aaronides of Lake Mareotis ?? From Iamblichus's Life of Pythagoras, or Pythagoric Life (c.310 AD), I see the Coenobitae. Cenobites? Too late, IF Saint Pachomius (c.325 AD) was the 'founder' (doubt that.)

I'm also not seeing the co-ed nudist colony of JuBus (i.e. Therapeutae) c.25 AD, but your mileage may vary.
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billd89
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Re: heh

Post by billd89 »

And someone NEEDS to post a picture of 'Ron Jeremy in a Thong' RIGHT NOW.
Secret Alias
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Re: Question for Mythicists: Did Jesus Wear Clothes?

Post by Secret Alias »

I see this as more of a 'return to Eden' thing rather than anything sexualized.
Secret Alias
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Re: Question for Mythicists: Did Jesus Wear Clothes?

Post by Secret Alias »

Another WTF moment in the gospel.
Then they came to Jericho. As Jesus and his disciples, together with a large crowd, were leaving the city, a blind man, Bartimaeus (which means “son of Timaeus”), was sitting by the roadside begging. When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Many rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he shouted all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” Jesus stopped and said, “Call him.” So they called to the blind man, “Cheer up! On your feet! He’s calling you.” Throwing his cloth aside (δὲ ἀποβαλὼν τὸ ἱμάτιον), he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus. “What do you want me to do for you?” Jesus asked him. The blind man said, “Rabbi, I want to see.” “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
And then there is the consideration that we all got the Letter to Theodore wrong.
After these words follows the text, "And James and John come to him", and all that section/pericope (καὶ πᾶσα ἡ περικοπή). And the (Τὸ δὲ) "naked man with naked man," and the other things about which you wrote, are not found. After now (Μετὰ δὲ τὸ), "And he comes into Jericho," the secret Gospel adds only, "And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them." But the many other things about which you wrote both seem to be, and are, falsifications.
All I am suggesting is that we read the Letter to Theodore as if Theodore 'knows' that there is a naked with naked reference in the long pericope that Clement cites at length. But we should also note that Clement also brings forward the blind Bartimaeus narrative where - no less than in the other scene - there is a naked man with Jesus. The Latin understanding of nudus nudum Christum sequi comes from this section of text too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudus_nud ... stum_sequi

Bede:
Since there are many, who so they may merit the treasure of eternity in heaven, cast off worldly ways and follow naked the gospel of life, it is rightly said of the illumination of the blind man: Who throwing his garment aside, leaped up and came to him. He indeed throws aside his garment and leaps, coming to be illuminated by Christ, who, with the snares of the world discarded, hurries with bold and eager steps to the granter of eternal light. [...] See, how the Lord and creator of the angels, in his taking up and joining with our nature, came in the womb of a virgin. But he did not wish to be born in this world from the wealthy, but chose poor parents.
On the parallels with Mark 14:52
A different internal correlation to the young man at 14:51-52 may exist, but it has little to do with the young man’s young manness or the specific item of clothing he wore to Gethsemane. Howard Jackson identifies the “constellation [of] garment-disrobement-nakedness,” and not the other facts of these verses, as the primary problematic element in need of elucidation.17 He demonstrates the valence in popular literature of a garment shed motif, wherein “the loss of a garment in highly emotionally charged circumstances” symbolizes the significance of events, whether positive or negative.18 It just so happens, of course, that another example of this motif at work appears earlier in the gospel of Mark, when Bartimaeus reacts to Jesus’s call for him to approach. “So throwing off his cloak, he sprang up and came to Jesus” (Mk 10:50 NRSV). Jesus restores Bartimaeus’s sight, and the now ex-beggar responds by following Jesus. Importantly, this connection is less linguistic than thematic, even though forms of the verb ἀκολουθέω appear in both scenes (10:52 and 14:51, with prefix συν-), suggesting perhaps that this is a commentary on properly following Jesus and reacting to his presence. Jackson in particular highlights how Bartimaeus “implicitly accepts the passion” that follows on the way to Jerusalem, whereas the young man represents a contrasting “abortive attempt at discipleship.”19 By applying their form critical and source critical insights, Mann and Jackson can regard the νεανίσκος τις at 14:51-52 as a literary foil to another point in the gospel. His is a poor example, and one not to be followed, for the proper example of following Jesus is found in Bartimaeus, and a demonstration of faith in Jesus is far better seen in the young man at the tomb. Still, by seeking a point of contact within the gospel itself, these interpreters, as well as my creative expansion of Mann’s embryonic idea, may be missing a bigger literary picture.
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John T
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Re: Question for Mythicists: Did Jesus Wear Clothes?

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:29 am I don't know if Jesus was in some way historical. I don't know every interpolation in the Bible.
That is not what this is about. You can't ask mythicists; Did Jesus Wear Clothes? Because to them Jesus did not exist. I could answer the question for you but you limited it to only Mythicists. Which I find as very clever way of flushing them out. :cheers:
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Question for Mythicists: Did Jesus Wear Clothes?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:38 amSurely Marcion thinking that 'Jesus' could pass through objects implies he was naked. Surely the Diatessaron implying 'Jesus' could fly implied he was naked. Surely surely surely. I can think of over 10 other examples.
I don't think it implies nakedness. There are spiritual bodies and spiritual garments and spiritual crowns. According to the Ascension of Isaiah:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html

Chapter 4.16. And to all who because of (their) faith in Him have execrated Beliar and his kings. But the saints will come with the Lord with their garments which are (now) stored up on high in the seventh heaven...

Chapter 8.14. And he said: "Hear, furthermore, therefore, this also from thy fellow servant: when from the body by the will of God thou hast ascended hither, then thou wilt receive the garment which thou seest, and likewise other numbered garments laid up (there) thou wilt see...

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