Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Secret Alias
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Read Justin on the Psalm 24 which mentions "the man of war." "Jesus" was only pretending to be placid and peaceful. He feigned death to storm the underworld and redeem souls.
Secret Alias
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Marcion got his ideas from the Hebrew text of Exodus chapter 15.
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Sinouhe
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Giuseppe wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:32 pm Only, the death and resurrection of this Jewish deity are taken from Paganism around.
Why do we have to search for a pagan influence when everything is in the Jewish texts (LXX) ?

Death = Isaiah 53:8,12
Resurrection = Isaiah 53:10
Giuseppe
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

Post by Giuseppe »

Sinouhe wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:18 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:32 pm Only, the death and resurrection of this Jewish deity are taken from Paganism around.
Why do we have to search for a pagan influence when everything is in the Jewish texts (LXX) ?

Death = Isaiah 53:8,12
Resurrection = Isaiah 53:10
that is the mere tool, not the primal impulse. Carrier assumes that the primal impulse is the Pagan diffusion of the theme of the god who dies and rises. Its influence is what moved some Jews to focus on Isaiah 53 and not vice versa.

Unless we are said explicitly in a previous Jewish source that the Messiah had to die and rise. But the existence of a such source is controversial, isn'it?

ADDENDA: In addition I think that the title "Christ" was more late than the name "Jesus".
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Sinouhe
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Giuseppe wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:40 pm
Sinouhe wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:18 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:32 pm Only, the death and resurrection of this Jewish deity are taken from Paganism around.
Why do we have to search for a pagan influence when everything is in the Jewish texts (LXX) ?

Death = Isaiah 53:8,12
Resurrection = Isaiah 53:10
that is the mere tool, not the primal impulse. Carrier assumes that the primal impulse is the Pagan diffusion of the theme of the god who dies and rises. Its influence is what moved some Jews to focus on Isaiah 53 and not vice versa.

Unless we are said explicitly in a previous Jewish source that the Messiah had to die and rise. But the existence of a such source is controversial, isn'it?
I disagree with Carrier since Isaiah’s servant (including Isaiah 53) was already predominant in messianic texts before Paul and Christianity.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Secret Alias wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:41 pm Read Philo on Genesis 42:11.
Where does Philo discuss Genesis 42.11?
He doesn't discuss it in any of the four Books of Questions and Answers on Genesis (which only go as far as §24: Gen. 28:8–9)
eta: the Allegoriae(?) "In the Allegoriae, or 'allegorical commentary on Genesis', which now consists of eighteen treatises in twenty-one books (about ten treatises have been lost, and some of the extant ones are incomplete), Philo allowed himself the luxury of long digressions and comparisons of the verses discussed with other passages in Scripture," Ralph Marcus, 'Supplements I & II, Questions and Answers on Genesis and Exodus', Harvard University Press, 1953(?)
schillingklaus
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Only in the fantasy of apologists like Boyarin did this predominance exist, but not in FJ or in PA.

Paul only exists in late Christian fantasy literature.
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John T
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Secret Alias wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:36 pm The Man who Jacob wrestled with is said by Josephus to have been a "phantasm" (Antiqu. l. 1. c. 20. sect. 2) the same word Tertullian puts in the mouth of Marcion.
Not a phantasm but an angel.

Jacob was left behind; and meeting with an angel he wrestled with him, the angel beginning the struggle; but he prevailed over the angel,

The Antiquities of the Jews Book 1/Chapter 20 sect 2.

I placed angel in bold for emphasis.

Let's not put words into Jospehus mouth to make a point that is not there.
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John T
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

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Secret Alias wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:41 pm Read Philo on Genesis 42:11.
Can you cite Philo on Genesis 42:11 regarding Jacobs sons claiming; "We are all sons of one man" that is, brothers from the same dad, i.e. Jacob?
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Ken Olson
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Re: Stephan Huller's recent interview by Jacob Berman

Post by Ken Olson »

John T wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:31 am
Secret Alias wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:36 pm The Man who Jacob wrestled with is said by Josephus to have been a "phantasm" (Antiqu. l. 1. c. 20. sect. 2) the same word Tertullian puts in the mouth of Marcion.
Not a phantasm but an angel.

Jacob was left behind; and meeting with an angel he wrestled with him, the angel beginning the struggle; but he prevailed over the angel,

The Antiquities of the Jews Book 1/Chapter 20 sect 2.

I placed angel in bold for emphasis.

Let's not put words into Jospehus mouth to make a point that is not there.
It might help to look at the Greek text or an English translation more recent than Whiston's eighteenth century one.

Josephus Ant 20.331-334 / 20.:

[331] Ταῦτα συνθεὶς διὰ πάσης τῆς ἡμέρας νυκτὸς ἐπιγενομένης ἐκίνει τοὺς σὺν αὑτῷ: καὶ χειμάρρουν τινὰ Ἰάβακχον λεγόμενον διαβεβηκότων Ἰάκωβος ὑπολελειμμένος φαντάσματι συντυχὼν διεπάλαιεν ἐκείνου προκατάρχοντος τῆς μάχης ἐκράτει τε τοῦ φαντάσματος, [332] ὃ δὴ καὶ φωνῇ χρῆται καὶ λόγοις πρὸς αὐτὸν χαίρειν τε τοῖς γεγενημένοις παραινοῦν καὶ μὴ μικρὸν κρατεῖν ὑπολαμβάνειν, ἀλλὰ θεῖον ἄγγελον νενικηκέναι καὶ σημεῖον ἡγεῖσθαι τοῦτο μεγάλων ἀγαθῶν ἐσομένων καὶ τοῦ μηδέποτε τὸ γένος ἐκλείψειν αὐτοῦ, μηδὲ ὑπέρτερον ἀνθρώπων τινὰ τῆς ἰσχύος ἔσεσθαι τῆς ἐκείνου. [333] ἐκέλευσέ τε καλεῖν αὐτὸν Ἰσραῆλον, σημαίνει δὲ τοῦτο κατὰ τὴν Ἑβραίων γλῶτταν τὸν ἀντιστάτην ἀγγέλῳ θεοῦ. ταῦτα μέντοι προύλεγεν Ἰακώβου δεηθέντος : αἰσθόμενος γὰρ ἄγγελον εἶναι θεοῦ, τίνα μοῖραν ἕξει σημαίνειν παρεκάλει. καὶ τὸ μὲν φάντασμα ταῦτ᾽ εἰπὸν ἀφανὲς γίνεται. [334] ἡσθεὶς δὲ τούτοις Ἰάκωβος Φανουῆλον ὀνομάζει τὸν τόπον, ὃ σημαίνει θεοῦ πρόσωπον. καὶ γενομένου διὰ τὴν μάχην ἀλγήματος αὐτῷ περὶ τὸ νεῦρον τὸ πλατὺ αὐτός τε ἀπέχεται τῆς τούτου βρώσεως καὶ δι᾽ ἐκεῖνον οὐδὲ ἡμῖν ἐστιν ἐδώδιμον.

331 After spending the day arranging this he moved on with his group at nightfall, and when they had crossed over a river called the Jabacchos, Jacob stayed behind and met with an apparition, who began wrestling with him, but he defeated the apparition. 332 Then it raised its voice and spoke to him words of greeting, encourging him by the event and saying that his victory was a significant one, for he had overcome a divine messenger and should see it as a sign of great future blessings, and that his descendants would never fail and that nobody would excel him in power. 333 He told him to take the name Israel, which in the Hebrew tongue means one who struggled with an angel of God. He foretold these things at Jacob's request, for recognising him as an angel of God, he asked him to indicate what would happen to him later. After saying this to him, the apparition disappeared. 334 Delighted, Jacob named the place Phanuel, which means, the face of God. Since after the fight he felt pain around his broad sinew, he abstained later from eating that joint as food, and for his sake it is still not eaten by us.

http://www.biblical.ie/page.php?fl=jose ... /AJGk01#20

Best,

Ken
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