Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

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Giuseppe
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Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

I say "interpolated" because Hegesippus was confused by some Christian authors (Origen in primis) with the Jewish historian Josephus via identity of the name.

I can't say "invented" because, as to James's death, Earl Doherty is open to the possibility that his legend has a historical nucleus, James being a Christian who probably didn't know about an earthly Jesus (the first gospel was not yet written when Hegesippus reported the legend of James).

As to John the Baptist, I follow Rivka Nir who argues for Origen quoting Hegesippus, an not at all Josephus, about him.


But what moved Hegesippus to report legends in a written form, under the name of Josephus (coincidentially or deliberately)?

Afterall, the earthly Jesus was not yet invented, by the time Hegesippus wrote.

I think that the reason of the interpolation is the growing interest by pre-Gospel post-70 Christians to introduce stories and/or legends about the death of Christian preachers (James and John being examples of Christian preachers, yes, John too), as precursors of the collective 'death' of the nation of Israel in 70 CE.

Note that in the same gospel of Mark, the reader is assumed to know that the both two sons of Zebedee, James and John, will receive martyrdom (the irony being that even their martyrdom was not sufficient to give them the first places, Paul and possibly Marcion being better candidates, or the two crucified thieves).

In conclusion, I see these legends as "technical tests" of legends connecting the death of Christian leaders with the national tragedy.

This say us that it is not a coincidence that the choice was fallen just on James and John, the predicted martyrs according to Mark.

So the miracle happened that the death of the Pillar John was confused with the death of John the Baptist. The confusion was forced, i.e. the paulinist "Mark" deliberatey doubled the historical John the Pillar in two figures: John son of Zebedee and John the Baptist. Why? Because John the Pillar was probably riotously anti-pauline: the "good" John the Pillar became the pre-Christian John the Baptist, while the "evil" John the Pillar became the John son of Zebedee.

The latter saw Paul as a not Christian:

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

(Mark 9:38-40)

The Paulinist didn't forgive the attack: John the Baptist and his disciples were considered as not-Christians.

Obviously, everything I have said here is true even if I assume Marcion as author of the first gospel.
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

Now, prof Vinzent has argued (correctly, in my view) that Hegesippus was a Judaizer who knew Mcn, and invented the story of the martyrdom of James the Just to emphasize the fact that Jesus had carnal brothers.

So, pace Doherty, Hegesippus follows, and doesn't precede, the gospels.

But then, if Vinzent is correct about the Hegesippian James as a reaction against Marcion, then so also the Hegesippian John the Baptist had to have an anti-marcionite function.

Under this scenario, the earliest reference to a John the Baptist would be Mcn.
schillingklaus
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by schillingklaus »

Doherty is an infantile follower of the ideology of Markan prioritism, so he does not understand by any stretch the logics of the evolution of the gospel story, as opposed to Jean Magne. Neither Mark nor Marcion are that early but depend on lost common sources, as denied by uncritical scholars like ABuddhist.
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

Doherty and Magne are on the same page at least about the presence in Paul of the myth of the celestial crucifixion in outer space.

When Magne says that the original dispenser of magical food (multiplication of the bread) was John and not Jesus, he is not far from Robert Stahl's view that a narrative about John the Baptist (with John the Baptist as the Gnostic hero) preceded the first Gospel and was used by the latter.
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

Should I give up to consider John the Baptist as a Judaizing icon, despite all the hostility addressed against him by Marcion? Was he really a Gnostic hero, before Marcionite times?
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

So Jean Magne on the Apollos's John (a gentilizing icon) paulinized and judaized by the paulinist "Mark":
Image

The image is derived from this important file on jstor:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23667078?r ... b_contents

Magne considers Judaizing the 'church of Paul'.
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

So, according to Magne, the fact that Mark is, if not the earliest, at least one of the first gospels, is explained by its being a gospel that is :
  • - gentilizing, obviously, since the early Christians were radical gentilizers (anti-demiurgists);
  • - but a gentilizing that has been slightly mitigated by a paint of judaizing (the supreme god is YHWH, even if the 'good actors' are all gentiles).
I don't know what Magne thought about the historicity of Paul, but it appears that the "Church of Paul" was, for him, another name for the church of the 12 (judaizing icons).
Giuseppe
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by Giuseppe »

A curiosity: the fact that in Mark the good actors are all gentiles, but are without name, may be a clue to Marcion's description of the supreme god as an alien deity (YHWH being already known from immemorial times).
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:26 am So, according to Magne, the fact that Mark is, if not the earliest, at least one of the first gospels, is explained by its being a gospel that is :
  • - gentilizing, obviously, since the early Christians were radical gentilizers (anti-demiurgists);
  • - but a gentilizing that has been slightly mitigated by a paint of judaizing (the supreme god is YHWH, even if the 'good actors' are all gentiles).
These characteristics should also apply to the Acts of Pilate (and some other late writings).
schillingklaus
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Re: Hegesippus interpolated the death of James and the death of John the Baptist before the first gospel

Post by schillingklaus »

The quoted article is quite old and was revised after the discovery of the diagramme of Philippe Rolland in the early eighties; so LOGIQUE DES SACREMENTS corrects the impressions and closes the logical gaps of the old article. This works remarkably although Philippe Rolland was an apologist almost as bad as John T (if that is even possible).
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