The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:49 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:16 pm Logion 65
Also another question about your translation of Logion 65. There is a lacuna in the first line noted in your translation as follows... ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ. Where others translate this as "A good man" or " kind man" your translation is different. Is it possible that this could be
..... ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲧⲟ]ⲥ ?
None really. I am not working on Thomas at moment

https://www.academia.edu/42150590/XREST ... impossible

Regarding ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ:

https://www.academia.edu/44902212/The_P ... your_Quest
Thanks for that. You make a convincing case for ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ.

a human of Employment = an employer?
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:42 pm
mlinssen wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:49 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:16 pm Logion 65
Also another question about your translation of Logion 65. There is a lacuna in the first line noted in your translation as follows... ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ. Where others translate this as "A good man" or " kind man" your translation is different. Is it possible that this could be
..... ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲧⲟ]ⲥ ?
None really. I am not working on Thomas at moment

https://www.academia.edu/42150590/XREST ... impossible

Regarding ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ:

https://www.academia.edu/44902212/The_P ... your_Quest
Thanks for that. You make a convincing case for ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ.

a human of Employment = an employer?
Somewhat. The word expresses Need just as a few others, which is the central driver for all of us: we Need to be/do [fill in the blanks]

The entire issue here is that the seeker is outsourcing his Quest, with dramatic results. And he does that precisely because he doesn't want to do all the work himself, he "employs" others.
And the driver for that is Need, in this case the Need to not bear the responsibility so he can't be blamed in case it turns sour or simply fails to do so

So he surely isn't an employer in the usual sense, but it's hard to find a double entendre where the primary and superficial meaning fits exactly the allegedly innocent context. Yet the secondary meaning is Need like logion 63 that is overflowing with it. Just as it is necessity that drives the dinner host to invite strangers
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:16 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:42 pm You make a convincing case for ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ.

a human of Employment = an employer?
Somewhat.

///

So he surely isn't an employer in the usual sense, but it's hard to find a double entendre where the primary and superficial meaning fits exactly the allegedly innocent context.
The WIKI page on Thomas notes that:

The text contains a possible allusion to the death of Jesus in logion 65[16] (Parable of the Wicked Tenants, paralleled in the Synoptic Gospels), but does not mention his crucifixion, his resurrection, or the final judgement; nor does it mention a messianic understanding of Jesus [17][18]

You don't mention this in your papers, however do you think the death of the son (in 65) is an allusion to the death of Jesus?
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:06 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:16 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:42 pm You make a convincing case for ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ.

a human of Employment = an employer?
Somewhat.

///

So he surely isn't an employer in the usual sense, but it's hard to find a double entendre where the primary and superficial meaning fits exactly the allegedly innocent context.
The WIKI page on Thomas notes that:

The text contains a possible allusion to the death of Jesus in logion 65[16] (Parable of the Wicked Tenants, paralleled in the Synoptic Gospels), but does not mention his crucifixion, his resurrection, or the final judgement; nor does it mention a messianic understanding of Jesus [17][18]



You don't mention this in your papers
, however do you think the death of the son (in 65) is an allusion to the death of Jesus?
Oh well spotted!
I also don't mention that Thomas doesn't have Jesus drink beer or watch porn

Follow the link that I sent you regarding ⲭⲣ[ⲏⲥⲓ]ⲥ and you'll have all the answers you're looking for
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Why the two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas?


Here are some notes on the IS and the three instances of IHS in Thomas.

0) The prologue says this:

"These ones are the words which are hiding,
the living IS has said them,
and Didymos Judas Thomas wrote them"


13) Logion 13 tells us that it was not the IS but the IHS who took Thomas aside and (in secret) spoke three words to him. So from this I would be inclined to view the IHS as the living IS. The big question is what are these three (hidden) words here (in 13) and more generally in the prologue? If any of these words is revealed there are surprising consequences - the hearers will pick up stones (to throw?) but out of the stones will come fire (F=Feminine) which will burn the stone-throwers.

22) Logion 22 starts off with the IS seeing children taking milk and says to the disciples that these "are comparable to they who are going inward to the reign of king". The disciples then say that they have "been made little persons, [and] we will go inward to the reign of king." The disciples are in the back seat and the IS and the IHS are driving. But then it is the IHS who provides a discourse on exactly how one would "go inward to the reign-of king." Many sayings lead to a resolution of all types of duality. So from this I would be inclined to view the IHS as some sort of guide. The concept of the reign of the king IMO refers to the inner journey and -- ignoring exoteric / externalities --- is the foundation of all esoteric (psychological) views of all forms of religions. It is non-dual. Leading to the One.

90) Logion 90 is short and sweet: "IHS said "Come to me! My yoke is Chrestos, my(F) lordship gentle(F), you will fall asleep". We have discussed this. The translation is in draft form at the moment. I have made some notes from your online concordance but have as yet no real conclusion. It would be interesting to find these three (hidden) words in Logion 90. Perhaps they are related to "Chrestos is yoke"? IDK. Perhaps they include this and whatever "my(F) lordship gentle(F), you will fall asleep". Why all the feminine (incuding the fire in 13?). Is the living IS (that is IHS) being satirical and/or ironic about the Chrestos notion? IDK. But if he is, then he can expect stone throwing from the opposition.

That's it for the moment.
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Logion 90

PATTERSON-BROWN:

90. Yeshua says: Come unto me, for my yoga° is natural° and my lordship is gentle—and you shall find repose for yourselves. (=Mt 11:28-30, Th 60; hyperlinear)

Mention of ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ (not noted in Jesus the Chrest – Nomina Sacra in the Nag Hammadi Library)


LINSSEN:

LOGION 90
ⲡⲉϫⲉ ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ ϫⲉ ⲁⲙⲏⲉⲓⲧⲛ̅ ϣⲁⲣⲟ ⲉⲓ` ϫⲉ ⲟⲩ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲁ ⲛⲁϩⲃ`
ⲡⲉϫⲉ- ⲓⲏⲥ ϫⲉ- ⲁⲙⲏⲉⲓⲧⲛ ϣⲁ- ⲉⲓ ϫⲉ- ⲟⲩ- ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲁ- ⲛⲁϩⲃ
said IHS : come!(PL) toward I : a(n) Kind-one is my yoke


ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲁ ⲙⲛ̅ⲧ̅ϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ ⲟⲩ ⲣⲙ̅ⲣⲁϣ ⲧⲉ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲉⲧ ⲛⲁ ϩⲉ ⲁ ⲩ ⲁⲛⲁⲩⲡⲁⲥⲓⲥ ⲛⲏ ⲧⲛ̅
ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲁ- ⲙⲛⲧϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ ⲟⲩ- ⲣⲙⲣⲁϣ ⲧⲉ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲉⲧⲛ- ⲛⲁ- ϩⲉ ⲉ- ⲟⲩ- ⲁⲛⲁⲡⲁⲩⲥⲓⲥ ⲛⲁ⸗ -ⲧⲏⲩⲧⲛ
and my(F) lordship a(n) gentle-man is(F) and you(PL) will fall to a(n) Repose to you(PL)

Interactive Coptic-English translation The good message according to Thomas
Martijn Linssen, MA Version 1.9 Page 92 of 256

The key terms after "Kind-one is my yoke"
or "Chrestos is my yoke" ????

LORDSHIP
TLA lemma no. C7380
ⲙⲛⲧϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ
EN: reign, dominion, lordship

See also:
ϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ – lord, master, owner
ϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ – mistress, owner
ⲣϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ – be lord, rule
ⲣⲉϥⲣϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ – ruler


GENTLE-MAN
TLA lemma no. C3218
ⲣⲙⲣⲁϣ
EN: mild, gentle person

See also:
ⲙⲛⲧⲣⲙⲣⲁϣ – gentleness
ⲣⲣⲙⲣⲁϣ – become, be gentle


REPOSE
TLA lemma no. C8251
ⲁⲛⲁⲡⲁⲩⲥⲓⲥ
EN:
1. rest, repose --- ref: 896 Bibliography: DDGLC
2. repose, rest (referent: release from the cosmos) - ref: 1292 Bibliography: DDGLC
3. repose, rest (referent: celestial hypostasis; an aeon) - ref: 4341 Bibliography: DDGLC
4. repose, rest (attributive; referent: celestial hypostasis; an aeon) - ref: 7642 Bibliography: DDGLC
5. offering made on behalf of s.o.'s soul - ref: 4545 Bibliography: DDGLC

The translation of Logion 90 appears to be critical to the interpretation of the difference between IS and IHS (if in fact there is a purposeful differentiation by the author.)
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:11 pm Logion 90

PATTERSON-BROWN:

90. Yeshua says: Come unto me, for my yoga° is natural° and my lordship is gentle—and you shall find repose for yourselves. (=Mt 11:28-30, Th 60; hyperlinear)

Mention of ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ (not noted in Jesus the Chrest – Nomina Sacra in the Nag Hammadi Library)


LINSSEN:

LOGION 90
ⲡⲉϫⲉ ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ ϫⲉ ⲁⲙⲏⲉⲓⲧⲛ̅ ϣⲁⲣⲟ ⲉⲓ` ϫⲉ ⲟⲩ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲁ ⲛⲁϩⲃ`
ⲡⲉϫⲉ- ⲓⲏⲥ ϫⲉ- ⲁⲙⲏⲉⲓⲧⲛ ϣⲁ- ⲉⲓ ϫⲉ- ⲟⲩ- ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲁ- ⲛⲁϩⲃ
said IHS : come!(PL) toward I : a(n) Kind-one is my yoke


ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲁ ⲙⲛ̅ⲧ̅ϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ ⲟⲩ ⲣⲙ̅ⲣⲁϣ ⲧⲉ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲉⲧ ⲛⲁ ϩⲉ ⲁ ⲩ ⲁⲛⲁⲩⲡⲁⲥⲓⲥ ⲛⲏ ⲧⲛ̅
ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲁ- ⲙⲛⲧϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ ⲟⲩ- ⲣⲙⲣⲁϣ ⲧⲉ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲉⲧⲛ- ⲛⲁ- ϩⲉ ⲉ- ⲟⲩ- ⲁⲛⲁⲡⲁⲩⲥⲓⲥ ⲛⲁ⸗ -ⲧⲏⲩⲧⲛ
and my(F) lordship a(n) gentle-man is(F) and you(PL) will fall to a(n) Repose to you(PL)

Interactive Coptic-English translation The good message according to Thomas
Martijn Linssen, MA Version 1.9 Page 92 of 256

The key terms after "Kind-one is my yoke"
or "Chrestos is my yoke" ????

LORDSHIP
TLA lemma no. C7380
ⲙⲛⲧϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ
EN: reign, dominion, lordship

See also:
ϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ – lord, master, owner
ϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ – mistress, owner
ⲣϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ – be lord, rule
ⲣⲉϥⲣϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ – ruler


GENTLE-MAN
TLA lemma no. C3218
ⲣⲙⲣⲁϣ
EN: mild, gentle person

See also:
ⲙⲛⲧⲣⲙⲣⲁϣ – gentleness
ⲣⲣⲙⲣⲁϣ – become, be gentle


REPOSE
TLA lemma no. C8251
ⲁⲛⲁⲡⲁⲩⲥⲓⲥ
EN:
1. rest, repose --- ref: 896 Bibliography: DDGLC
2. repose, rest (referent: release from the cosmos) - ref: 1292 Bibliography: DDGLC
3. repose, rest (referent: celestial hypostasis; an aeon) - ref: 4341 Bibliography: DDGLC
4. repose, rest (attributive; referent: celestial hypostasis; an aeon) - ref: 7642 Bibliography: DDGLC
5. offering made on behalf of s.o.'s soul - ref: 4545 Bibliography: DDGLC

The translation of Logion 90 appears to be critical to the interpretation of the difference between IS and IHS (if in fact there is a purposeful differentiation by the author.)
Paterson Brown's translating is magnificent, his translation is shite, and just as biased and coloured as all others

Logion 90 is where Thomas impersonates a religious leader, I think - but then he would have to do the same in 13 and 22?

Look at the word ⲣⲁϣ: fever, ache (yeah, CDO was made by academics, remember? I've raised about a third of all their bugs but the money has run out now)

Logion 90 is essentieel indeed: all the words here can be chopped up into little pieces that individually mean something negative.
XRHSTOS? The word seems to derive from the verb ⲭⲣⲱ

And when we look at that word, we understand that all of it comes from Thomas

But we still haven't gotten none the wiser about ihs
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: The two ligatures for Jesus - IS and IHS - in the Gospel of Thomas

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:18 pm
Look at the word ⲣⲁϣ: fever, ache (yeah, CDO was made by academics, remember? I've raised about a third of all their bugs but the money has run out now)
Can't find ⲣⲁϣ but found the following note by you in another thread:

TLA lemma no. C201
ⲁⲣⲟϣ
cold, freezing / fever (ague)
Logion 90 is essential indeed: all the words here can be chopped up into little pieces that individually mean something negative.
I was thinking that if there are three distinct "slogan-like" (your comment) negative words here in 90 then these may be the words that IHS gave in secret to Thomas which, if uttered, would result in people picking up stones, and the stones would burn the stone-throwers. (Logion 13)



From: viewtopic.php?p=140712#p140712
Having said all that, here's the "literal interpretation":
  • said IHS : come!(PL) toward I : a Xrhstos is my yoke
    and my(F) reign-of-slaveowner a man-of-fever is(F) and you(PL) will fall to a "Nowhere-to-go" to you(PL)
Do note the substantivation of ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ - while perfectly normal and legit for Thomas (and Coptic) I have to figure out what the grammatical options are to say this with a pure adjective instead
Would an adjective be necessary? An adjective is my yoke; a noun is my yoke? If a noun, then "A title (Chrestos - in a distant century to become Christos) is my yoke".
But we still haven't gotten none the wiser about ihs

"And he took him, he Withdrew; he said to him three words." (13)

Will the text support the splitting of Logion 90 into 3 groups of words separated by two AND conjunctions (as indicated in your translation)? If so the the three (groups of) words would be as follows:
  • (1) said IHS : come!(PL) toward I : a Xrhstos is my yoke
    and
    (2) my(F) reign-of-slaveowner a man-of-fever is(F)
    and
    (3) you(PL) will fall to a "Nowhere-to-go" to you(PL)
"these ones are the [3] words which are hiding, the living IS has said them, and Didymos Judas Thomas wrote them" [Prologue]

Don't repeat them to anyone because there will be dire consequences !!!
Post Reply