Was Morton Smith a forger?

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ABuddhist
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Re: Was Morton Smith a forger?

Post by ABuddhist »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:27 am However, the original usage appears to be a distinction between texts which teach the basics and texts that teach advanced stuff suitable only for advanced students. The idea that the esoteric material should be restricted, not so much because of its actual teaching, but because it deals with sublime matters that must be hinted at, in a way that makes the text harmful for people who read it in a crude prima-facie way, is IMO Neo-Platonic.
Andrew Criddle
With all due respect, though, such claims are not unique to neo-Platonism. Vajrayana Buddhism, which arose later but independently in India, has similar (or maybe identical) teachings about restricted texts. So such ideas could have arisen in the Roman Empire before or independently of neo-Platonism.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Was Morton Smith a forger?

Post by andrewcriddle »

ABuddhist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:04 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:27 am However, the original usage appears to be a distinction between texts which teach the basics and texts that teach advanced stuff suitable only for advanced students. The idea that the esoteric material should be restricted, not so much because of its actual teaching, but because it deals with sublime matters that must be hinted at, in a way that makes the text harmful for people who read it in a crude prima-facie way, is IMO Neo-Platonic.
Andrew Criddle
With all due respect, though, such claims are not unique to neo-Platonism. Vajrayana Buddhism, which arose later but independently in India, has similar (or maybe identical) teachings about restricted texts. So such ideas could have arisen in the Roman Empire before or independently of neo-Platonism.
The rise of Vajrayana (esoteric) Buddhism is linked to datable developments in Buddhism as a whole.
The rise of Proclan-type esotericism is linked to datable developments in Neo-Platonism as a whole.

Andrew Criddle
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: Was Morton Smith a forger?

Post by ABuddhist »

andrewcriddle wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:43 am
ABuddhist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:04 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:27 am However, the original usage appears to be a distinction between texts which teach the basics and texts that teach advanced stuff suitable only for advanced students. The idea that the esoteric material should be restricted, not so much because of its actual teaching, but because it deals with sublime matters that must be hinted at, in a way that makes the text harmful for people who read it in a crude prima-facie way, is IMO Neo-Platonic.
Andrew Criddle
With all due respect, though, such claims are not unique to neo-Platonism. Vajrayana Buddhism, which arose later but independently in India, has similar (or maybe identical) teachings about restricted texts. So such ideas could have arisen in the Roman Empire before or independently of neo-Platonism.
The rise of Vajrayana (esoteric) Buddhism is linked to datable developments in Buddhism as a whole.
The rise of Proclan-type esotericism is linked to datable developments in Neo-Platonism as a whole.

Andrew Criddle
Indeed. But could there have been any other tradition within the Roman Empire which could have inspired the esotericism? I know that in India, esotericism was found within Buddhism and Hinduism, albeit arising from the same religious trends and probably locations.
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2817
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Was Morton Smith a forger?

Post by andrewcriddle »

ABuddhist wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:08 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:43 am
ABuddhist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:04 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:27 am However, the original usage appears to be a distinction between texts which teach the basics and texts that teach advanced stuff suitable only for advanced students. The idea that the esoteric material should be restricted, not so much because of its actual teaching, but because it deals with sublime matters that must be hinted at, in a way that makes the text harmful for people who read it in a crude prima-facie way, is IMO Neo-Platonic.
Andrew Criddle
With all due respect, though, such claims are not unique to neo-Platonism. Vajrayana Buddhism, which arose later but independently in India, has similar (or maybe identical) teachings about restricted texts. So such ideas could have arisen in the Roman Empire before or independently of neo-Platonism.
The rise of Vajrayana (esoteric) Buddhism is linked to datable developments in Buddhism as a whole.
The rise of Proclan-type esotericism is linked to datable developments in Neo-Platonism as a whole.

Andrew Criddle
Indeed. But could there have been any other tradition within the Roman Empire which could have inspired the esotericism? I know that in India, esotericism was found within Buddhism and Hinduism, albeit arising from the same religious trends and probably locations.
I'm not an expert here but Buddhist esotericism may have borrowed substantially from Hindu esotericism.
See for example https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/ ... frontcover
http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric ... her-wallis

(Should these last few texts be moved to a new thread in the Eastern texts and History forum ?)

Andrew Criddle
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