Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:55 pm
That whole passage in his Commentary on Matthew is him explaining via analogy how...Christians (i.e. of his time) might treat the Word of God when it comes for them. Step out onto the sea, but if, like any Peter, we may have doubts and so start to 'sink', call upon Jesus.

Origen is doing more than that: he's outlining the Word as (i) the Saviour, (ii) still beholden as a φάντασμα : a phantasma :
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:20 pm

6 ...

And, when we see the Word appearing unto us, we shall indeed be troubled before we clearly understand that it is the Saviour who has come to us, supposing that we are still beholding an 'apparition,' and for fear shall cry out; but He Himself straightway will speak to us saying, "Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" [Matthew 14:27]

via https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101611.htm:


lsayre
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by lsayre »

Light? Light beings? If one drills down far enough, do these (perhaps being one and the same) emerge at the root of phantasma?
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by lsayre »

phos –  φῶς - pronounced: foce - light

phainó - φαίνω - pronounced: fah'-ee-no - to bring to light, to cause to appear

phantasma - φάντασμα, ατος, τό - pronounced: fan'-tas-mah - an appearance, apparition
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:10 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:55 pm
That whole passage in his Commentary on Matthew is him explaining via analogy how...Christians (i.e. of his time) might treat the Word of God when it comes for them. Step out onto the sea, but if, like any Peter, we may have doubts and so start to 'sink', call upon Jesus.
Origen is doing more than that: he's outlining the Word as (i) the Saviour, (ii) still beholden as a φάντασμα : a phantasma :
No, he isn't outlining the Word as anything. He is making an analogy, comparing the story in gMatthew (Jesus walking out on water to the boat the disciples were in) and how contemporary Peters (the "we" in Origen) might approach a similar situation. Origen isn't making a metaphysical statement at all about the Word/Saviour/Jesus.
lsayre
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by lsayre »

“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
"I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness."
"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men."
"While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
Etc...

And God said "Let there be Light". (The very moment of the creation (emanation) of his Son?)
And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.…
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by MrMacSon »

Way down this web-page for 'fantasma' is


Spanish

Etymology

Borrowed from Latin phantasma, from Ancient Greek φάντασμα (phántasma, “image, phantom”), from φαντάζω (phantázō, “to make visible”), from φαίνω (phaínō, “to cause to appear, bring to light”).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fantasma#Etymology_4


Origen alludes a little to 'light' further on in Commentary on Matthew, Book XI -


11 ... their [the Jews'] works are not works of light, but of darkness and night [Isaiah 29:15]

12 ... The Pharisees, whose minds the god of this world has blinded as they are unbelieving, because they have not believed in Jesus Christ; and he has blinded them so that "the light of the Gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ should not dawn upon them" [2 Corinthians 4:4].

15 ... for when the Lord comes in the day of judgment, "He will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts" [1 Corinthians 4:5],

18 ... For you may see, along with the multitudes who come to this mountain where the Son of God sits, some who have become deaf to the things promised, and others blind in soul and not looking at the true light, and others who are lame and not able to walk according to reason, and others who are maimed and not able to work according to reason.


- but it's not fully correlated with phantasma in this book of this text
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by lsayre »

There may also be association of Phantasma with the Pleroma.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (In the beginning God created light and darkness?)
And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep
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MrMacSon
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:28 am No, he isn't outlining the Word as anything ...
There are none so blind as those who don't want to see


when we see the Word appearing unto us, we shall indeed be troubled before we clearly understand that it is the Saviour who has come to us, supposing that we are still beholding an 'apparition' ... He Himself straightway will speak to us saying, "Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" [Matthew 14:27]

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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by lsayre »

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (good and evil?)
And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light (good) from the darkness (evil?)
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness (evil?) was over the surface of the deep

Quoting the God of creation: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Quoting Jesus: " my peace I give you."
Last edited by lsayre on Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:16 am, edited 5 times in total.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Jesus was Imaginary: My Prefential Terminology in Place of 'Mythicism'

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:52 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:28 am No, he isn't outlining the Word as anything ...
There are none so blind as those who don't want to see


when we see the Word appearing unto us, we shall indeed be troubled before we clearly understand that it is the Saviour who has come to us, supposing that we are still beholding an 'apparition' ... He Himself straightway will speak to us saying, "Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid" [Matthew 14:27]

Well, not the first time that I'd be wrong! But I think I'm right. This is all analogy. Origen isn't saying anything about the metaphysical nature of the Word. Here is what Origen writes, leading up to that passage. The story about the disciples in the boat on the stormy sea is an analogy about how the Christians in Origen's time ("we") should handle temptations:

The simpler disciple, then, may be satisfied with the bare narrative [in gMatthew]; but let us remember, if ever we fall into distressful temptations, that Jesus has constrained us to enter into their boat, wishing us to go before Him unto the other side; for it is not possible for us to reach the other side, unless we have endured the temptations of waves and contrary wind.

Then when we see many difficulties besetting us, and with moderate struggle we have swum through them to some extent, let us consider that our boat is in the midst of the sea, distressed at that time by the waves which wish us to make shipwreck concerning faith or some one of the virtues; but when we see the spirit of the evil one striving against us, let us conceive that then the wind is contrary to us.

When then in such suffering we have spent three watches of the night – that is, of the darkness which is in the temptations – striving nobly with all our might and watching ourselves so as not to make shipwreck concerning the faith or some one of the virtues, – the first watch against the father of darkness and wickedness, the second watch against his son “who opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or thing that is worshipped,” (1Th_2:4) and the third watch against the spirit27 that is opposed to the Holy Spirit, then we believe that when the fourth watch impendeth, when “the night is far spent, and the day is at hand,” (Rom_13:12) the Son of God will come to us, that He may prepare the sea for us, walking upon it. And when we see the Word appearing unto us...

"Our" boat is metaphorical, the sea is metaphorical, the wind and waves, the shipwreck, the walking on water: all are metaphorical, and are explanations about what "we" should do "if ever we fall into distressful temptations", which is call on Jesus. The 'apparition' is the fear that it isn't really Jesus that is coming.
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