Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:15 pm
Don. For you Origen is NOT referencing the Word which wrestled with Jacob here. He is only thinking of 'Jesus' as a man of the flesh:
And when we see the Word appearing (ἐμφανιζόμενον) unto us we shall indeed be troubled before we clearly understand that it is the Saviour who has come to us, supposing that we are still beholding an apparition (φάντασμα), and for fear shall cry out; but He Himself straightway will speak to us saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. Matthew 14:27
Καὶ ἐπὰν ἴδωμεν τὸν λόγον ἡμῖν ἐμφανιζόμενον, ταραχθη σόμεθα μὲν πρὶν τρανῶς καταλαβεῖν ὅτι ὁ σωτὴρ ἡμῖν ἐπιδεδήμηκεν, οἰόμενοι ἔτι φάντασμα θεωρεῖν, καὶ φοβού μενοι κεκραξόμεθαα· ἀλλ' αὐτὸς εὐθέως ἡμῖν λαλήσει λέγων· Θαρσεῖτε, ἐγώ εἰμι, μὴ φοβεῖσθε
Origen is wholly thinking of Jesus as a historical man 'walking on water' somehow.
That whole passage in his
Commentary on Matthew is him explaining via analogy how modern Christians (i.e. of his time) might treat the Word of God when it comes for them. Step out onto the sea, but if, like any Peter, we may have doubts and so start to 'sink', call upon Jesus. As Origen follows on your passage:
And when we see the Word appearing unto us we shall indeed be troubled before we clearly understand that it is the Saviour who has come to us, supposing that we are still beholding an apparition, and for fear shall cry out; but He Himself straightway will speak to us saying, “Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.” (Mat_14:27) And if, warmly moved by His “Be of good cheer,” any Peter be found among us, who is on his way to perfection but has not yet become perfect, having gone down from the boat, as if coming out of that temptation in which he was distressed, he will indeed walk at first, wishing to come to Jesus upon the waters; but being as yet of little faith, and as yet doubting, will see that the wind is strong and will be afraid and begin to sink; but he will not sink because he will call upon Jesus with loud voice, and will say to Him, “Lord, save me;” (Mat_14:30) then immediately while such a Peter is yet speaking and saying, “Lord save me,” the Word will stretch forth His hand, holding out assistance to such an one, and will take hold of him when he is beginning to sink, and will reproach him for his little faith and doubting.
It's nothing to do with flesh or apparitions.
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:15 pmThere is no reference to Josephus's phantasma who wrestled with Jacob?
I don't get your point, I'm sorry. Origen is being Origen: finding analogy in everything, in this case gMatthew. On God's appearance to Jacob, I can find this view by Origen:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... en166.html
Our wise men, however,--Moses, the most ancient of them all, and the prophets who followed him,--knowing that the chief good could by no means be described in words, were the first who wrote that, as God manifests Himself to the deserving, and to those who are qualified to behold Him, He appeared to Abraham, or to Isaac, or to Jacob. But who He was that appeared, and of what form, and in what manner, and like to which of mortal beings, they have left to be investigated by those who are able to show that they resemble those persons to whom God showed Himself: for He was seen not by their bodily eyes, but by the pure heart. For, according to the declaration of our Jesus, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."
Perhaps seeing God's appearance with a pure heart might fit your idea of "imaginary" person?