Which Christian Texts were oldest, according to those who date Authentic Paulines to the 2nd century CE?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Which Christian Texts were oldest, according to those who date Authentic Paulines to the 2nd century CE?

Post by ABuddhist »

I imagine that varying answers exist, but I am interested in knowing them.
lsayre
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Which Christian Texts were oldest, according to those who date Authentic Paulines to the 2nd century CE?

Post by lsayre »

Paul knows effectively zilch about a Joseph or a Mary or a virgin birth or a historical Jesus, so to me this seems to imply either that Paul is very early, or that Paul is not Christian, and was only catholocized (lower case 'c') as such when it became necessary and/or useful to do so. Might that justify the prevailing opinion that Paul is the earliest writer?

Admittedly this may not be a fitting reply seeing that you are asking this of exclusively of those who date Paul very late... It is however something that should be pondered by those who do place Paul's letters very late. But in regard to Paul that camp seems to enjoy both having its cake and eating it. Or to burn its Paul candle from both ends.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Which Christian Texts were oldest, according to those who date Authentic Paulines to the 2nd century CE?

Post by Giuseppe »

The Christian interpolations in the book of Sibylline Oracles.

The epistle to Hebrews.

The Jewish portions of Revelation.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Which Christian Texts were oldest, according to those who date Authentic Paulines to the 2nd century CE?

Post by MrMacSon »

There's the Great Declaration Commentary preserved in the Refutation of All Heresies 6.14-18. According to the commentator-author of that version, Simon of Samaria (aka Simon Magus), early-mid first century (35-70 CE), himself composed a long original which 'the commentator' had later annotated and expanded. Some historians have disputed this because of the complexity and philosophical character of the text, but, by all accounts, according to M David Litwa, "Simon was a complex thinker with a measure of philosophical sophistication" (Found Christianities, p.47)

The Declaration is an allegorical reading on Genesis 1-3 and alludes to Matt 3:10 and 1 Cor 11:32 but has 'Logos' in reference to scripture on one occasion and Moses on another, which would be surprising if whoever wrote that knew the Gospel attributed to John. Litwa says the the apparent lack of interaction with John "is a hint of an early date since, by the mid-second century, unfamiliarity with John would have been unlikely" (he cites Charles E Hill, The Johannine Corprus in the Early Church, 2004, esp, 224, 230-5).

The contradiction between Acts and the Declaration where by Acts depicts Simon as venerated as "the Power of God called Great” (Acts 8:10) yet the Declaration identifies the Great Power with 'the Mind of the Universe' and never with Simon, suggesting the author of Acts was trying to discredit Simon as a self-deifier (cf. Herod in Acts 12:20-23) just as Justin Martyr and the author of Refutations did.

Eusebius refers to a Simonian 'written oracle' (H.E. 2.13.7)
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2817
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: Which Christian Texts were oldest, according to those who date Authentic Paulines to the 2nd century CE?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:13 amEusebius refers to a Simonian 'written oracle' (H.E. 2.13.7)
Eusebius is also the first to mention the Clementine literature in which Simon Magus features prominently. Simon Magus is literary character. Zero historicity. IMO

To the OP:
I date the magnificent seven letters of Paul after the 2nd century.

Physical manuscript evidence:

The earliest physical NT related manuscript appears to be Dura Parchment 24. Dating anything (e,g, NT Oxyrhynchus papyrii) earlier by means of paleography in isolation is problematic, and realistic upper bounds likely includes the 4th century.


Theoretical manuscript evidence:

Which Christian Texts were theoretically the oldest? Theoretically the earliest Christians are said to have preserved some version of a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Since the NT authors data mined the Greek LXX it theoretically had to have existed before the data mining (quoting bits and pieces) took place. The Christians preserved a special "Christianised" version of the LXX (containing "nomina sacra"). Therefore - in theory - this "Chistianised LXX" existed before any of the canonical (or apocryphal) Christian texts.
lsayre
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Which Christian Texts were oldest, according to those who date Authentic Paulines to the 2nd century CE?

Post by lsayre »

Justin seems to know nothing of a Paul, but he speaks about a Simon Magus. Justin also appears to know nothing about a Judas...
schillingklaus
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:17 pm

Re: Which Christian Texts were oldest, according to those who date Authentic Paulines to the 2nd century CE?

Post by schillingklaus »

Judas is an excessively late interpolation into the gospel story.
Post Reply