Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

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MrMacSon
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by MrMacSon »

From pp.124-5 of Waddell:


James Dunn laments oversimplifying analysis of ascriptions of preexistence to the messiah figure in LP [the Letters of Paul]. Dunn writes:
  • Paul does have a conception of the preexistent Christ. But it is the pre-existence of Wisdom now identified by and as Christ. It is the prehistorical existence of Adam as a template on which a vivid Adam christology begins to be drawn. That there is no clear thought of Christ’s preexistence independent of such imagery (Wisdom and Adam) is a factor of considerable importance in determining the significance to be given to subsequent statements of Christ’s preexistence.
With specific reference to 1 Cor 8:6, Dunn acknowledges the preexistence of the messiah figure in Paul’s language:
  • “The ‘one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things,’ clearly existed before the creation of the ‘all things (ta panta)’.”
Philippians 2:7 also refers to the preexistence of the messiah figure, and takes an incipient or proto-incarnational tone. We have already seen that Paul considered the messiah figure to be a human being (see §5.1.1, [below]).1 We have also seen how Paul considered the messiah figure to be a heavenly being (see §5.1.2, [below]).2 The combination of evidence in Paul, that the messiah figure is a preexistent heavenly being (1 Cor 8:6; 15:47) who was also born as a human being (Gal 3:15–20; 4:4–5; Rom 1:1–4; 8:3; Phil 2:5–9), suggests an incipient use of language toward a concept like incarnation in Paul’s thought.

All of these texts have an incipient language of incarnation or a proto-incarnational tone, not in the sense of the more developed language that is typically identified with incarnation of deity as in the Prologue to John’s Gospel (John 1:1–5, 14), but in the sense that Paul clearly conceptualized a preexistent heavenly messiah figure who was “born from woman,” in human flesh. In Phil 2 the messiah figure was in the form of God, but “did not consider being equal with God as something to be exploited, but he emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by being born in the likeness of human beings” (Phil 2:6–7). Of what did the messiah figure empty himself? This presupposes preexistence of some kind. There is clearly a change between “being in the form of God” (...) and “taking the form of a slave” (...) or “being born in the likeness of human beings” (...).



1 I think Waddell gets a few things wrong in §5.1.1.

He starts it


5.1.1 A Human Being

Paul held that the messiah figure is a human being. Paul referred to Christ as Abraham’s “seed” (..., Gal 3:16, 19) in connection with the promise God made to Abraham (Gen 13:14–17; 15:1–6). Christ as “the seed” of Abraham is the physical manifestation of the fulfillment of God’s promise to the Gentiles (Gal 3:15–20).


One could contend it is arguable whether "Christ as the seed of Abraham is the physical manifestation of the fulfillment of God’s promise to the Gentiles".

Waddell then says, "That the messiah figure in Paul’s thought is a human being Paul also articulated in terms of his birth," and appeals to Gal 4:3-4 and Romans 1:3 as saying 'born'. Some to many would dispute that.

And Waddell claims that, "Paul claimed that the messiah figure literally “was born from the seed of David according to flesh”.

Though he does refer to Romans 8:3 which he says says "the messiah figure was sent by God in the likeness of sinful flesh."

I would say a lot of these passages in Paul also align with a modification of what Waddell said in the excerpt first quoted in this post ie.


All of these texts have an incipient language of incarnation or a proto-incarnational tone, not in the sense of the more developed language that is typically identified with incarnation of deity as in the Prologue to John’s Gospel (John 1:1–5, 14), but in the sense that Paul clearly conceptualized a preexistent heavenly messiah figure who was [said to be]born [made] from woman” [to be] in human flesh.


2 in 5.1.2, I think Waddell seems to outline what I am thinking


5.1.2 A Heavenly Being

Paul used language of “sending” to describe the origin of the messiah figure. In his Letter to the Galatians Paul wrote that the messiah figure was “sent forth” by God (Gal 4:4; Rom 8:3). As I have already pointed out, this is stated in two places in LP, in Paul’s Letter to the Galatians and in his Letter to the Romans. At Gal 4:4 Paul wrote: “But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his son (...), born from woman, born under law, in order that he might redeem those who are under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons.” This particular text refers to a number of issues related to the messiah figure in terms of both nature and function. Here we will only discuss this passage with regard to the nature of the messiah figure.

This raises several questions. From where did the divine figure send forth the messiah figure? For the divine figure to “send forth” the messiah figure, this implies location, and since it is a tacit assumption of Second Temple period Jewish thought that the divine figure dwells in heaven, this also implies a heavenly nature for the messiah figure (see the discussion in §4.2.3). This text further implies the preexistence of the messiah figure in Paul’s thought by connecting the motif of God “sending” his son with the messiah figure’s birth, “ 'born' from woman, born under law ” (...). Paul considered Christ to be more than a human messiah figure. “God sent forth his son.”

This is accomplished by means of human birth, suggesting that Paul attributed an existence for the messiah figure prior to his human birth. Not only does this text explicitly make the claim that “God sent forth his son”; Paul qualified this claim with the temporal phrase, “But when the fullness of the time came” (...), further suggesting that the messiah figure existed temporally before the sending and was residing in heaven until “the fullness of the time” had arrived.

... At Rom 8:3 Paul wrote:
  • “For what could not be [done] by the law, in that it was weakened through the flesh—God [did] having sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (...)"
and with reference to sin he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to flesh but according to the Spirit.”

This again raises the question, from where did God send forth his Son? The logical answer is that God had to “send forth” his Son from some specific place. This is further evidence that Paul considered the messiah figure to be a heavenly being.


Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by MrMacSon »

in Waddell also says in §5.1.1 (italics added by me):


Philippians 2:5–9 should also be adduced as explicit evidence of the humanity of the messiah figure in Paul’s thought:
  • Have this mind among you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God as something to be exploited, but he emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by being born in the likeness of human beings; and having been found in frame as a human he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, the death of a cross.
This early christological hymn also describes the messiah figure in terms of his human nature: “form of a slave…born in the likeness of human
beings…found in frame as a human.”


ie. Paul thought Jesus was a heavenly being with a human nature
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:27 am From pp.124-5 of Waddell:


James Dunn laments oversimplifying analysis of ascriptions of preexistence to the messiah figure in LP [the Letters of Paul]. Dunn writes:
  • Paul does have a conception of the preexistent Christ. But it is the pre-existence of Wisdom now identified by and as Christ. It is the prehistorical existence of Adam as a template on which a vivid Adam christology begins to be drawn. That there is no clear thought of Christ’s preexistence independent of such imagery (Wisdom and Adam) is a factor of considerable importance in determining the significance to be given to subsequent statements of Christ’s preexistence.

Thanks MrMacSon. I have Dunn's "The Theology of Paul the Apostle", and as Waddell noted, Dunn sees the pre-existence is of Wisdom, with Paul's Jesus Christ as funnelling that Wisdom as a human. Though how good Dunn's argument is, I'm not qualified to judge.
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Sinouhe
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by Sinouhe »

Dunn seems to ignore or to forget that the Messiah of the parables of Enoch is also pre-existent.

In fact, most of the characteristics of Paul's Messiah are shared with the Messiah of the parables. Even his eschatological role on the day of judgment is very similar to that of the messiah of the parables.

Now that scholars date the parables before Christianity, in view of all the parallels, it is safe to assume that Paul's Messiah is built, in part, on the messianic expectations of the parables.
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:49 am Dunn seems to ignore or to forget that the Messiah of the parables of Enoch is also pre-existent.

In fact, most of the characteristics of Paul's Messiah are shared with the Messiah of the parables. Even his eschatological role on the day of judgment is very similar to that of the messiah of the parables.

Now that scholars date the parables before Christianity, in view of all the parallels, it is safe to assume that Paul's Messiah is built, in part, on the messianic expectations of the parables.
Dunn, rightly or wrongly, dates the parables of Enoch to the late 1st century CE.
He may well be wrong but I am much less confident than you are on the point.

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Sinouhe
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by Sinouhe »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:35 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:49 am Dunn seems to ignore or to forget that the Messiah of the parables of Enoch is also pre-existent.

In fact, most of the characteristics of Paul's Messiah are shared with the Messiah of the parables. Even his eschatological role on the day of judgment is very similar to that of the messiah of the parables.

Now that scholars date the parables before Christianity, in view of all the parallels, it is safe to assume that Paul's Messiah is built, in part, on the messianic expectations of the parables.
Dunn, rightly or wrongly, dates the parables of Enoch to the late 1st century CE.
He may well be wrong but I am much less confident than you are on the point.

Andrew Criddle
Since the Enoch seminar, there is no longer any real debate about the dating of the parables: apart from few isolated scholars, they all date the parables before Paul :
« Thus, these four elements are helpful in narrowing the dating of Par. En., suggesting that Par. En. was written in the late first century bce or early first century ce. This dating was confirmed by a broad consensus of scholars at the Third Enoch Seminar in Camaldoli, Italy in June of 2005[/b].42

As Paolo Sacchi noted in his summary, “in sum, we may observe those scholars who have directly addressed the problem of dating the Parables all agree on a date around the time of Herod . . . given the impressive amount of evidence gathered in support of a pre-Christian origin of the document. The burden of proof has now shifted to those who disagree with the Herodian date. It is now their responsibility to provide evidence that would reopen the discussion
” ».

—-> viewtopic.php?p=135210#p135210
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Sinouhe wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:50 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:35 am
Dunn, rightly or wrongly, dates the parables of Enoch to the late 1st century CE.
He may well be wrong but I am much less confident than you are on the point.

Andrew Criddle
Since the Enoch seminar, there is no longer any real debate about the dating of the parables: apart from few isolated scholars, they all date the parables before Paul :
« Thus, these four elements are helpful in narrowing the dating of Par. En., suggesting that Par. En. was written in the late first century bce or early first century ce. This dating was confirmed by a broad consensus of scholars at the Third Enoch Seminar in Camaldoli, Italy in June of 2005[/b].42

As Paolo Sacchi noted in his summary, “in sum, we may observe those scholars who have directly addressed the problem of dating the Parables all agree on a date around the time of Herod . . . given the impressive amount of evidence gathered in support of a pre-Christian origin of the document. The burden of proof has now shifted to those who disagree with the Herodian date. It is now their responsibility to provide evidence that would reopen the discussion
” ».

—-> viewtopic.php?p=135210#p135210

There is an interesting discussion of problems with the use of the Similitudes in the study of early Christianity here

Andrew Criddle
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Sinouhe
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by Sinouhe »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:34 am
Sinouhe wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:50 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:35 am
Dunn, rightly or wrongly, dates the parables of Enoch to the late 1st century CE.
He may well be wrong but I am much less confident than you are on the point.

Andrew Criddle

Since the Enoch seminar, there is no longer any real debate about the dating of the parables: apart from few isolated scholars, they all date the parables before Paul :
« Thus, these four elements are helpful in narrowing the dating of Par. En., suggesting that Par. En. was written in the late first century bce or early first century ce. This dating was confirmed by a broad consensus of scholars at the Third Enoch Seminar in Camaldoli, Italy in June of 2005[/b].42

As Paolo Sacchi noted in his summary, “in sum, we may observe those scholars who have directly addressed the problem of dating the Parables all agree on a date around the time of Herod . . . given the impressive amount of evidence gathered in support of a pre-Christian origin of the document. The burden of proof has now shifted to those who disagree with the Herodian date. It is now their responsibility to provide evidence that would reopen the discussion
” ».

—-> viewtopic.php?p=135210#p135210

There is an interesting discussion of problems with the use of the Similitudes in the study of early Christianity here

Andrew Criddle


There is an excellent book that explains why the parables of Enoch are useful for the study of Pauline messianism and primitive christianity :

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E0830A67-202C-4DC6-B9AC-3560D987D2A8.jpeg (40.58 KiB) Viewed 644 times
Even James Mc Grath (more a fundamentalist than a minimalist ) recognizes the value of this thesis for the study of early Christianity:
B022F976-762F-4C30-A92C-7D8C654BD9F0.jpeg
B022F976-762F-4C30-A92C-7D8C654BD9F0.jpeg (448.43 KiB) Viewed 644 times
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/religionp ... being.html

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39273983-2AFF-4C77-B09E-68C6B304F1D2.jpeg (155.92 KiB) Viewed 644 times
https://www.academia.edu/5021780/Review ... University
andrewcriddle
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by andrewcriddle »

I think my point was that even if the Parables of Enoch were available when Paul wrote, (I regard this as likely; my very tentative date for the Parables is c 40 CE during the crisis of Caligula's reign), this does not necessarily mean that Paul knew of them. The absence of the Parables from Qumran suggests that they had limited distribution before the 1st Jewish War and only became widely known afterwards.

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Sinouhe
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Re: Passages that show Paul thought Jesus was pre-existent?

Post by Sinouhe »

There are many similarities between the Messiah of the Parables and the Messiah of Paul.
It would be very surprising if it was just a coincidence. And it is indeed embarrassing for Christianity.
Last edited by Sinouhe on Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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