What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
dbz
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What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by dbz »

  • Paul's pedagogy (παιδαγωγία 'paidagogía')
Paul says that Jesus, in obedience (FAITH) to first-god, relinquished the perfection of the heavenly realm and humbled himself. The message is that Jesus was triumphant in his ἀγωνία 'agonía' i.e. his contest, struggle for victory. Therefore, for those with FAITH —the dead do not die per se.

N.B.
Passion: to carry or bear a burdon​
  • from Latin passiō, ultimately from patior. Cognate with patience.
  • from Greek pathós (παθός) someone who experienced or underwent something e.g. an agony (a word originally meaning: competition, battle).
The education featured in the agōgē (ἀγωγά) involved cultivating loyalty to Sparta and paidagōgíā (παιδᾰγωγῐ́ᾱ ) through pain tolerance.
schillingklaus
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by schillingklaus »

There is no primary lesson as the epistles are all late piecemeal.
lsayre
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by lsayre »

The Jews are of Hagar, and the Gentiles are of Sarah. This must be at the very ground floor.

Hint: After the application of some seriously twisted and incoherent logic meant to baffle only those who don't know better, along with those who do but for whatever reason are willing to overlook that detail, Paul fails in adequately (or even remotely) proving this key tenant, and worse, he (and anyone who goes along with him) must smack the Hebrew God in the face and proclaim this God to be a liar whereby to even attempt to do so. Thus in the end Paul is a failure. But to those who didn't/don't know better, he was/is the founder of an entire new religion.
lsayre
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by lsayre »

After this groundwork, Paul presents the argument that since God gave the promise to Abraham because of his faith alone, Moses and his 'Law' are irrelevant. And from the same argument comes Paul's conception that circumcision is of no value. Both of these also involve convoluted logic.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by GakuseiDon »

"Send money"
ABuddhist
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by ABuddhist »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:01 pm "Send money"
I wish that more people studying Christian origins from outside the box were taking this approach. Paul can be compared to Yogi Bhajan, who used distorted and invented Sikh teachings in order to build a fortune by preaching to people who were largely unfamiliar with Sikhism and were interested in joining an ancient religion. Paul can be said to have done the same with Judaism, regardless of whether Jesus was a historical figure or when.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by GakuseiDon »

ABuddhist wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:36 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:01 pm "Send money"
I wish that more people studying Christian origins from outside the box were taking this approach. Paul can be compared to Yogi Bhajan, who used distorted and invented Sikh teachings in order to build a fortune by preaching to people who were largely unfamiliar with Sikhism and were interested in joining an ancient religion. Paul can be said to have done the same with Judaism, regardless of whether Jesus was a historical figure or when.
Yes, Paul does seem to hammer on about collections and "ministering to the saints" a lot. There was a thesis paper someone sent to me called "At the Temple Gates: The religion of freelance experts in early imperial Rome" by Heidi Wendt. She's since gone on to write a book on the same topic (which I haven't got yet) and it made me think of Paul in a different perspective. A New New Perspective on Paul :D

Not that I'm claiming Paul was necessarily a sham con-artist like many preachers in mega-churches today, but the growth of his business model in places around Europe and his constant travelling must have been expensive. As that business grew, I'd expect the need for pushing for more money must have grown as well, with that affecting the content of his letters.

Here is a collection of passages from Paul that I found where he is either asking for money or complaining about the lack of material help as he tours:

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.


Macedonia and Achaia pop up quite a few times in Paul's letters as examples of generosity. Way to go Macedonia and Achaia!

2 Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.


Paul is shouting out his sponsors again!

1 Cor 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

1 Cor 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!


Paul seems to be complaining about his lack of money here and asking for support to help preach the gospel.

Phil 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God.


A final group of passages where Paul talks about the necessity of supporting the saints:

Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

1 Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

2 Cor 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

2 Cor 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
lsayre
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by lsayre »

lsayre wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:41 am The Jews are of Hagar, and the Gentiles are of Sarah.
As an aside which is not relevant to this thread, but may require a thread of its own, whomever wrote the Gospel of John expanded upon this twisted logic that is rooted in Paul. This John makes explicit within 8:44, where he places it upon the lips of Jesus. (thus blurring the distinction between Paul and Jesus)

The conception that the Jews are of Hagar, and the Gentiles are of Sarah lies at the heart of antisemitism.

Another tangent: Did I ever mention that Jesus was only given that name (by God himself) post his resurrection? Who might he have been before he became Jesus?
dbz
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by dbz »

lsayre wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:08 am Another tangent: Did I ever mention that Jesus was only given that name (by God himself) post his resurrection? Who might he have been before he became Jesus?
Of course the Jehovah’s Witnesses have long claimed to have uncovered the secret truth that, in fact, Jesus was none other than the Archangel Michael, traveling under another name (one that just happens to mean God’s Messianic Savior, suggesting that name, in this case, is fabricated: Christ means Anointed ergo Messiah/Messianic; and Jesus, i.e. Joshua, i.e. Yeshua, means God’s Savior). And there is a good case to be made that they are right. And this case is most expertly laid out in Darrell Hannah’s doctoral dissertation, later revised and published by Moer Siebeck and then Wipf & Stock in 1999: Michael and Christ: Michael Tradition and Angel Christology in Early Christianity.

I have not thought this equation defensible enough to include as any premise in my work to date. I still consider it an intriguing possibility with some support in the evidence, but not something one can reliably “prove.” Although I think now, after having read Hannah, the case is better than I thought (even if still not iron clad).
—Carrier (11 June 2021). "Was Jesus-Is-Michael an Early Christian Mystery Teaching?". Richard Carrier Blogs.

Giuseppe
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Re: What was Paul's primary lesson he wanted people to learn

Post by Giuseppe »

dbz wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:18 am
—Carrier (11 June 2021). "Was Jesus-Is-Michael an Early Christian Mystery Teaching?". Richard Carrier Blogs.

From that link (and this) I come to know about Ranko Stefanovic, The Revelation of Jesus Christ: A Commentary on the Book of Revelation, 2002.

The basic quotes from it:

7:2-3 John sees further another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God. This angel coming from the east is in ultimate control. The concept of "the rising of the sun" found elsewhere in the New Testament is associated with Christ. The fact that this angel commands the four angels of the higher rank, presumably cherubim, suggests that he is the commander of the heavenly hosts; in the book of Revelation the commander of the heavenly angels is Michael (12:7), and Michael is evidently Jesus Christ. There is no doubt that in the appearance of this angel we have the presence of Jesus himself.

(p. 259, my bold)

12:7-9 There was war in heaven. The participants in the war are Michael and his angels against the dragon and his angels. This war evidently takes place after the child has been taken from earth (12:5). The context indicates that Michael, the commander of the heavenly hosts, is Christ himself (cf. 12:10-11), while Satan is the anti-Christ.

(p. 286, my bold)

It is especially significant that Christ, while waging war with the dragon in heaven, is referred to as Michael (Rev. 12:7), which in Hebrew means "Who is like God?" Here is another indication that in preparation for the final battle this beast imitates Christ. The question: "Who is like the beast and who is able to wage war with him?" implies the answer: no one.

(p. 406, bold)
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