Another reason to consider interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus

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Giuseppe
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Another reason to consider interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus

Post by Giuseppe »


It is plain, moreover, that Josephus wishes us to regard Tiberius as having espoused Herod's cause, and to understand Vitellius as being very deferential to the aristocracy. We can feel reasonably certain that if Josephus for any cause had wished to commend John, he would not have selected this connection for so doing. John's designation for the aristocracy, "brood of vipers" (Matt. 3, 7), and the whole tone of his teaching, were not calculated to inspire reverence for those in high places.

(Frederic Huidekoper, Indirect Testimony to the Genuineness of the Gospels. 7° edition, London, 1887, 154–56, my bold)

Thanks to Chris :cheers: for this wonderful article!
Giuseppe
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Re: Another reason to consider interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus

Post by Giuseppe »

Where I admire Chris is in this criticism of Marcus:

...Marcus inadvertently has provided a good background with the competition hypothesis for actually arguing that followers of John the Baptist interpolated the passage. If followers of John are contending with Christians and trying to disavow Christian tradition (as in Mandean tradition), these followers could have interpolated a passage about John chronologically after Jesus’ time in Josephus’s Antiquities (which appears to be the case) and without mention of Jesus to discredit the connection between the two (that John’s followers interpolated the passage was argued previously by Frederic Huidekoper, Indirect Testimony to the Genuineness of the Gospels. 7th Edition. London, 1887, 154–56). Arguing that it was not Christians who interpolated the passage does not demonstrate it was not an interpolation.

(my bold)

Now, if that was the case, then the absolute freedom the followers of John had taken with the dating of their leader John (they placed John under Herod only to post-date him shortly after the time of Pilate, contra Christianos), implies that themselves in primis didn't know when their leader John the Baptist lived precisely.

For example, if they were followers of John of Gischala (assuming the latter was the historical John the Baptist), they didn't dare to place that known John under Herod Antipas, unless they had lost any chronological memory about him therefore becoming free to place him in the time when they wanted.

A John the Baptist not localized in the time by his same followers is therefore a John who could be never existed.
Giuseppe
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Re: Another reason to consider interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus

Post by Giuseppe »

As seen above, Chris Hansen has raised the concrete possibility that the Baptist Passage in Josephus was introduced where it is now in Antiquities, by the followers of the Baptist, to post-date deliberately the presumed period of activity of Jesus, so that John the Baptist couln't be considered the temporal precursor of Jesus called Christ.

Now, we have seen a good argument to consider the association of the (portrayed as) anti-demiurgists Dositheus and Simon Magus with the Baptist as part and parcel of the Christian propaganda addressed against the disciples of the Baptist:

insofar you consider your Baptist as the Christ, then not only John was a false Christ, but he was dangerously compromised with those bad guys: Dositheus and Simon Magus.

So now we have a further reason to consider the disciples of the Baptist as the true interpolators of the Baptist Passage in Josephus:

The disciples of the Baptist, being disturbed/attacked by the (entirely propagandistic) connection of John with Dositheus, interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus, where it is now, precisely in order to deny that John the Baptist was (in some relation with) the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate: Dositheus.


This idea converges partially with the George Ory's conclusion for that matter, even if Ory thought that the interpolation has been made not by the disciples of the Baptist but by the same Christians.

So, resuming my conclusions (by now), we have the following steps:
  • 1) Dositheus was the name of the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate (evidence: Origen is disturbed by the fact that Dositheus was a contemporary of the Gospel Jesus).
  • 2) in whiletime, there was a growing rivarly between the adorers of Jesus and the disciples of John the Baptist, about who was the true Christ.
  • 3) the adorers of Jesus attacked the disciples of the Baptist, by connecting them with the 'dirty' anti-demiurgists Dositheus and Simon Magus. Dositheus wasn't really an anti-demiurgist, but so wanted the propaganda, in order to defame partially the memory of the Baptist and especially of the latter's disciples.
  • 4) As apology, the disciples of the Baptist interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus: now the Baptist couldn't be confused more with the (teacher of the) 'dirty' Dositheus.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Another reason to consider interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Glad i could help and give you some ideas Giuseppe. :)
Giuseppe
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Re: Another reason to consider interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus

Post by Giuseppe »

The honor is all mine, Chris. ;)
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Another reason to consider interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

My personal theory is that I think the passage is probably an interpolation by John's later followers or a section purporting to follow him. That said I don't think Marcus actually rebutted Nir's Christian interpolation thesis in any satisfactory way. I still consider either option viable at this point but favor Huidekoper.
Giuseppe
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Re: Another reason to consider interpolated the Baptist Passage in Josephus

Post by Giuseppe »

I am reading currently the Rivka Nir's book.

He denies the existence of followers of John the Baptist:

...I tackled the prevailing view in research that the Fourth Gospel's description of John is attributable to an alleged polemic between the Christian congregation and John's disciples, members of a Baptist sect, who claimed John rather than Jesus as their messiah. I analyzed the evidence sustaining this position and attempted to prove that it does not imply the existence of such a group and its polemic with the Christian congregation in first century CE. My conclusion is that the explanation for the Fourth Gospel's assertions that deny to John any messianic title lies at the theological an not the historical level. It is precisely John's eminent status in this Gospel that created the need to distinguish between him and Jesus.

(The First Christian Believer, p. 264, my bold)

The implication is that the Baptist Passage was interpolated necessarily by Jewish-Christians, since there were no followers of the Baptist interested to confute Christian claims by using interpolations in Josephus.


What derived my attention is this quote:

To my mind, however, the various aspects distinguishing John's death nearly fit Christian martyrdom. As I have attempted to show, the principle of faith for which John was willing to lay down his life is the prohibition against divorce and remarriage, which was among the core values of Christian theology.

(ibid., p. 237)

I note a contradiction between this John and the Jesus bringing a sword and not peace, i.e. the Marcionite Jesus who breaks any link with the material world of the Creator.

The divorce is a marcionite motive: the Marcionite Christian has to divorce himself with this world. Jesus divorces from his family, inducing the latter to consider him mad.
So this anti-divorce John fits perfectly an anti-marcionite icon.
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