πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gryan
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by gryan »

Ken Olson wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:52 am
gryan wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:12 am Given that you have studied and taught at Duke (home of my heroes in the πίστις Χριστοῦ debate, Richard Hays and Doug Campbell) I'm dying to know which side of this debate you are on, and what you think is at stake.
gryan,

I lean toward the subjective genitive advocated by Richard Hays (and Douglas Campbell, Luke Timothy Johnson, and the late J. Louis Martyn among others), but I don't think the debate is settled yet.

My introduction to the debate was the two essays in the Appendix of the second edition of Richard Hays, The Faith of Jesus Christ (2002):

James D.G. Dunn, Once More, ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ (249-271)

Richard B. Hays, Πίστις and Pauline Christology (272-297)

I thought Hays' essay was much stronger than Dunn's. Hays offered a plausible explanation, against the traditional reading 'faith in Christ', of why the term Pistis Christou, could be read as 'faith' (or) "faithfulness' 'of Christ" and that this fits Paul's broader narrative of how the salvation of human being is accomplished. It seemed to me that Dunn did not quite manage to get his head around the alternative reading Hays was proposing and just dismissed it because he already knew that it meant 'faith in Christ". That said, this does not necessarily mean that Hays is right, only that he's been fortunate in his choice of opponents.

This has been my big problem with most of the responses I've seen to the 'faithfulness of Jesus Christ' reading. Those opposing it are so used to understanding it as 'faith in Christ' that they don't seem to grasp how any sensible person could think otherwise and can't really engage with the opposing position effectively. I'd like to see someone try to answer Hays (and the others who advocate the subjective genitive) start by laying out Hays' position sympathetically and then explaining why the 'faith in Christ' reading is better. (If anyone knows of such a treatment, please post a citation).

As to what's at stake, it's a question of how Paul conceives of the mechanism of salvation working. Both the idea of Christ's faithfulness and the Christian's faith in Christ can be found in the New Testament. To oversimplify Hays' argument a good bit, he's saying that it is not just left up to the individual to place his faith in Christ (which makes faith another sort of work that the person has to do to achieve salvation), it's that Jesus has accomplished the salvation of humankind through his faithfulness unto death - that's what saves people. The mechanism by which people participate in this faithfulness is baptism - the baptized have died and risen with Christ (Hays' theory presumes E. P. Sanders' theory of participation in Christ through baptism).

There's a reasonably even-handed treatment of the issue in:

Matthew Easter, The Pistis Christou Debate: Main Arguments and Responses in Summary, Currents in Biblical research 9.1 (2010) 22-47.

Abstract

The πíστiς Xρiστoȗ (pistis Christou) debate continues to be a lively point of scholarly interest. While a vast amount of literature appears on the subject, interpreters often repeat a few main arguments in support of their position. This essay discusses the main exegetical arguments for the two major sides in the pistis Christou debate and how others have responded to the arguments. Arguments for the objective genitive are treated first, followed by those for the subjective genitive. The essay closes with a discussion of the way interpreters have relied on their prior understanding of the larger concept of Paul’s theology as the decisive argument for their position. As such, the essay finds that this larger hermeneutical question of the nature of Paul’s gospel is the true locus of the pistis Christou debate.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 3X09360725

(Unfortunately, I'm not aware of anyplace the article is freely available online).

Best,

Ken
Ken,

I appreciate you sharing this! That's some heavy reading.

I think to appreciate the idea of participation in the "faith of Christ" (as opposed to the "faith in Christ" readings of ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ) it takes an appreciation of scholarly methods of exegesis, and a confidence that it is really possible to outdo the early Fathers in our understanding what Paul was saying.

Are there successful popularizing books on the "faith of Christ" ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ?

Probably the best resources are the newer translations where it is in the main text and not just in footnotes as in the NRSV and NIV. I'm thinking of translations of the NT by individuals N. T. Wright and David Bentley and also, the NET.

There is an explanation of the NET decision written 20 years ago:

"...the most significant departure in the NET from other English translations is undoubtedly the translation of the Pauline expression, πίστις [᾿Ιησοῦ] Χριστοῦ. A neutral rendering in, say, Rom 3.22—“by faith of Jesus Christ” (the KJV wording)—is virtually nonsensical.15 Because of this, modern English translations could not be ambivalent here; a choice had to be made. Should the genitive Χριστοῦ be regarded as objective or subjective? Virtually all modern English translations regard it as an objective genitive, both in Rom 3.22 and the other Pauline texts16: “faith in Jesus Christ.” This is so in spite of an increasing number of scholars who, in the past few decades, have argued for a subjective genitive— “the faithfulness of Jesus Christ.” This construction, and its use in Rom 3.22, illustrates the need of both a completely new English translation and one that does not hide the tensions of biblical scholarship from the lay reader. In 1975, when C. E. B. Cranfield’s first volume of his ICC commentary on Romans was published, he could speak of the subjective genitive view of πίστις Χριστοῦ in Rom 3.22 as “altogether unconvincing” without giving much support for this conclusion, and citing only an early articulation of the subjective view written in 1891.17 The NIV NT had appeared two years earlier than Cranfield’s commentary. But in recent years, the subjective view has gained a greater hearing, although it still finds almost no place either in English translations or alternate renderings in the margin.

The state of flux that surrounded πίστις Χριστοῦ put the editors in a quandary. The first translator of the NET Romans in fact rendered this as “faith in Christ.” The editors were split, though leaning slightly toward the subjective view. We decided to consult NT scholars in the United States, England, Canada, and Australia, to find out what the climate was in their circles. I wrote to Bruce Longenecker , J. D. G. Dunn, and others who have written on this subject, and visited R. B. Hays, to get their impressions. Our concern was not so much to solve this crux interpretum but to sense where NT scholarship was heading on this matter. The NET is not a market-driven translation, but it is intended to reflect the best of current biblical scholarship. In this case, a decision was by no means easy. In the end, we opted for “the faithfulness of Christ.”
https://netbible.com/2019/07/01/innovat ... testament/

----------

Unlike the NET committee, my concern is to solve this crux interpretum, and to do so with a rereading of the flesh phrases of Galatians in light of literary echos in Hebrews. Ben Witherington pointed out echos of the idea of Christ's faithfulness in Hebrews as support for the "faithfulness of Christ" of ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ. My rereading of the flesh phrases takes the reading of Galatians to a whole other level, but it all depends on the underlying sense of participation in the faith of Christ, now, "in the flesh", and thus, as Paul suggests, manifesting "the life of Jesus in our moral flesh" (2 Cor 4:11).

My guess is that this grammar and sense was so difficult to understand, to preach and to practice that by around the time P46 was copied (CE 200), it was already forgotten, perhaps long forgotten.

Best,

Greg

PS Perhaps you know Matthew Easter (mentioned above) whose dissertation was on the faith of Jesus in Hebrews. I sent him a sampling of my rereadings of the flesh phrases of Galatians a while back, and without quibbling over specifics, he expressed encouragement for the project.
andrewcriddle
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by andrewcriddle »

Explicit unambiguous reference to the faithfulness of Christ appears more characteristic of Hebrews than of the genuine Paulines.

Andrew Criddle
gryan
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by gryan »

For an attempt to bring the πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) thesis to a broader audience, this is the best book I've found:

The Faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah
A Gospel Emphasis
By Walter D. Zorn · 2020
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... =en&gbpv=0
gryan
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by gryan »

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but imho it is unprofessional for the Journal for the Study of the New Testament to allow the second of these two paragraphs Paul's πίστις Χριστοῦ:

"During the early 1980s heyday of the so-called New Perspective on Paul, as forensic accounts of justification fell out of fashion in favour of participatory themes of union and identification with Christ, the Apostle’s talk of salvation by faith ‘of Christ’ seemed to a growing school of interpreters to require reorientation as a subjective genitive: it is by his faithfulness that believers are justified. The name most formatively associated with this reading at the time was that of Richard B. Hays; he was widely followed and multiple publications for and against his reading continue to appear every year.

Within the somewhat self-contained steam room of Anglophone Protestant exegesis, advocates of this view have at times pressed its merits with grandiosely totalizing self-assurance. By contrast, I can claim no stake in heated contentions about genitival astrology, let alone in the kabbalistic certainties that surround debates about participation in Christ versus justification by faith, whether of the self-styled ‘apocalyptic’ sort or not. Some readers will find such agnosticism to lack linguistic or theological seriousness. But the debates in question have long struck me as majoring on deeply implausible dichotomies and, to quote Celsus, as disputes about the shadow of an ass. I struggle, for example, to imagine with a straight face that Paul’s Roman readers tossed sleepless on their beds in anguish lest they hit upon the wrong sort of genitive."
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/epub/1 ... X231191188
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Ken Olson
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by Ken Olson »

gryan wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 12:32 pm Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but imho it is unprofessional for the Journal for the Study of the New Testament to allow the second of these two paragraphs Paul's πίστις Χριστοῦ:

[First paragraph snipped]

Within the somewhat self-contained steam room of Anglophone Protestant exegesis, advocates of this view have at times pressed its merits with grandiosely totalizing self-assurance. By contrast, I can claim no stake in heated contentions about genitival astrology, let alone in the kabbalistic certainties that surround debates about participation in Christ versus justification by faith, whether of the self-styled ‘apocalyptic’ sort or not. Some readers will find such agnosticism to lack linguistic or theological seriousness. But the debates in question have long struck me as majoring on deeply implausible dichotomies and, to quote Celsus, as disputes about the shadow of an ass. I struggle, for example, to imagine with a straight face that Paul’s Roman readers tossed sleepless on their beds in anguish lest they hit upon the wrong sort of genitive."
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/epub/1 ... X231191188
Yeah, you don't generally see that kind of smug 'I'm above it all' attitude that dismisses both sides of a debate on an issue of substance as laughable in academic journals. It's much more common on this forum.

Best,

Ken
Steven Avery
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by Steven Avery »

Interesting topic.

The modern versions have a bit of an obsession on our faith in Jesus, so they frequently mistranslate to emphasize that doctrine.

I have heard an interesting argument that the phrase “faith of Jesus Christ” is, at least in some verses, a reference more to the Gospel doctrine rather than the personal faith and faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Thus the “of” is close to “about”.

Do you see that presented in the literature?

Thanks!

=======

Markus Bockmuehl. - his comments are more understandable if you include his footnote 26.

26. For example, ‘a subjective construal of the contested πίστις Χριστοῦ genitive in Rom. 3:22, coupled with a messianic construal of Habakkuk 2:4 in Rom. 1:17b, explains the entire data set with all its subtle correlations in an integrated and plausible manner. We should now consider that it is the only interpretation that can do so…’ (Campbell 2009: 66) (ital. mine).
Last edited by Steven Avery on Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
gryan
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by gryan »

Steven Avery wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:09 am Interesting topic.

The modern versions have a bit of an obsession on our faith in Jesus, so they frequently mistranslate to emphasize that doctrine.

I have heard an interesting argument that the phrase “faith of Jesus Christ” is, at least in some verses, a reference more to the Gospel doctrine rather than the personal faith and faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Thus the “of” is close to “about”.

Do you see that presented in the literature?

Thanks!

=======

Markus Bockmuehl. - his comments are more understandable if you include his footnote 26.

26. For example, ‘a subjective construal of the contested πίστις Χριστοῦ genitive in Rom. 3:22, coupled with a messianic construal of Habakkuk 2:4 in Rom. 1:17b, explains the entire data set with all its subtle correlations in an integrated and plausible manner. We should now consider that it is the only interpretation that can do so…’ (Campbell 2009: 66) (ital. mine).
Hi Steven,

That footnote is telling. Thanks for sharing it.

That the KJV translates πίστις Χριστοῦ as "faith of Christ" is interesting.

Cf: Douay-Rheims Bible (produced at around the same time with the goal of translating the Vulgate).
And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.

Re: "I have heard an interesting argument that the phrase “faith of Jesus Christ” is, at least in some verses, a reference more to the Gospel doctrine rather than the personal faith and faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Thus the “of” is close to “about”."

No, I have not seen that presented in the literature, as I recall.
Steven Avery
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by Steven Avery »

Thanks, gryan,

While the AV is generally "faith of Christ" there may be some subtleties.

Here is where the alternate view of "faith of Christ" was expressed.

AV1611
Faith Is A Doctrine As Well As A Function!
Truth4Today
https://av1611.com/forums/showpost.php? ... stcount=13

This phrase (πιστεως Iησου Χριστoυ) as seen in (Rom. 3:22; Gal 2:16; 3:22) is distinct from the phrase (πιστεως εν Iησου Χριστoυ) as found in (Gal. 3:26). You must understand that there are two aspects to faith. One, is the Function of faith and is usually designated by the word “your” or something similar. Two, is the Doctrine of faith, which is usually found proceeded by the article “the”. An example of this is found in (Col. 1:23) “ If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”. Here faith is referring to the doctrine/the gospel. Therefore, we can see that “faith of Jesus Christ” is in reference, NOT to the function of Christ’s faith nor even our function of faith, BUT to the doctrine of faith which Christ is the object of . See the same use of “of” in (Eph. 4:13; Phil. 1:27; 1Thess. 3:2).
gryan
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by gryan »

Steven Avery wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 6:27 pm Thanks, gryan,

While the AV is generally "faith of Christ" there may be some subtleties.

Here is where the alternate view of "faith of Christ" was expressed.

AV1611
Faith Is A Doctrine As Well As A Function!
Truth4Today
https://av1611.com/forums/showpost.php? ... stcount=13

This phrase (πιστεως Iησου Χριστoυ) as seen in (Rom. 3:22; Gal 2:16; 3:22) is distinct from the phrase (πιστεως εν Iησου Χριστoυ) as found in (Gal. 3:26). You must understand that there are two aspects to faith. One, is the Function of faith and is usually designated by the word “your” or something similar. Two, is the Doctrine of faith, which is usually found proceeded by the article “the”. An example of this is found in (Col. 1:23) “ If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”. Here faith is referring to the doctrine/the gospel. Therefore, we can see that “faith of Jesus Christ” is in reference, NOT to the function of Christ’s faith nor even our function of faith, BUT to the doctrine of faith which Christ is the object of . See the same use of “of” in (Eph. 4:13; Phil. 1:27; 1Thess. 3:2).
How do you understand James 2:1?
Steven Avery
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Re: πίστις Χριστοῦ (faith of Christ) survey question

Post by Steven Avery »

Looks to me that you can see it as the personal "faith" of Jesus, or, perhaps smoother, the doctrine and Gospel of Christ.

James 2:1-7 (AV)
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Here are the three verses highlighted by the gentleman, for the doctrinal, not grammatical nicety, sense:

Ephesians 4:13 (AV)
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 1:27 (AV)
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ:
that whether I come and see you, or else be absent,
I may hear of your affairs,
that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

1 Thessalonians 3:2 (AV)
And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God,
and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ,
to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
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