The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

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Secret Alias
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The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

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https://www.academia.edu/45423595/F_A_B ... load-paper

I've often mused about the idea that the original 'Roman Church' was located at Ostia. There's a thread somewhere about it here. One thing I notice in the "Pope Book" cited in the above article is the reference to the church at Ostia as a "church of Peter and Paul." We see the same thing repeated in Hegesippus:
Panarion 32.6 "I heard at some time of a Marcellina27 who was deceived by them, who corrupted many people in the time of Anicetus, Bishop of Rome, the successor of Pius and the bishops before him. (2)28 For the bishops at Rome were, fi rst, Peter and Paul, the apostles themselves and also bishops—then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, a contemporary of Peter and Paul whom Paul mentions in the Epistle to the Romans. And no one need wonder why others before him succeeded the apostles in the episcopate, even though he was contemporary with Peter and Paul—for he too is the apostles’ contemporary appointment from Peter while they were still alive, and he declined and would not exercise the office—for in one of his Epistles he says, giving this counsel to someone, “I withdraw, I depart, let the people of God be tranquil,”29 (I have found this in certain historical works)—or whether he was appointed by the bishop Cletus after the apostles’ death.

6,5 But even so, others could have been made bishop while the apostles, I mean Peter and Paul, were still alive, since they often journeyed abroad
for the proclamation of Christ, but Rome could not be without a bishop.(6) Paul even reached Spain, and Peter often visited Pontus and Bithynia. But after Clement had been appointed and declined, if this is what happened—I suspect this but cannot say it for certain—he could have been compelled to hold the episcopate in his turn, after the deaths of Linus and Cletus who were bishops for twelve years each after the death of Saints Peter and Paul in the twelfth year of Nero.)

6,7 In any case, the succession of the bishops at Rome runs in this order: Peter and Paul, Linus and Cletus, Clement, Evaristus, Alexander, Xystus, Telesphorus, Hyginus, Pius, and Anicetus, whom I mentioned above, on the list.30 And no one need be surprised at my listing each of the items so exactly; precise information is always given in this way. (8) In Anicetus’ time then, as I said, the Marcellina I have spoken of appeared at Rome spewing forth the corruption of Carpocrates’ teaching, and corrupted and destroyed many there. And that made a beginning of the so-called Gnostics
41. 1,1 One Cerdo succeeds these and Heracleon—a member of the same school, who took his cue from Simon and Satornilus. He was an immigrant from Syria who came to Rome2 and appeared there, utter wretch that he was, as his own scourge and the scourge of his followers.

1,2 For the human race is wretched when it leaves God’s way and strays, and has perished by separating itself from God’s calling. (3) The proverb of the dog attending to the refl ection of < the food > it had in its mouth applies to people like these. Looking into a pond, and thinking that the reflection in the water was larger than the food in its mouth, it opened its mouth and lost the food it had. (4) So these people, who had found the way and yet wanted to get hold of the refl ection which had been formed in their imaginations, not only lost the nourishment which God had, as it were, graciously placed in their mouths, but drew destruction upon themselves as well.

1,5 Cerdo, then, lived in the time of bishop Hyginus, the ninth in succession from the apostles James, Peter and Paul.3 Since his doctrine partakes of the other heresiarchs’ foolishness it appears to be the same, but with him it is different and takes the following form:
42.1,7 As Marcion could not get what he wanted from him by fawning, unable to bear the scorn of the populace he fl ed his city and arrived at Rome itself after the death of Hyginus, the bishop of Rome. (Hyginus was ninth in succession from the apostles Peter and Paul). Meeting the
elders who were still alive and had been taught by the disciples of the apostles, he asked for admission to communion, and no one would grant it to him. (8) Finally, seized with jealousy since he could not obtain high rank besides entry into the church, he refl ected and took refuge in the sect
of that fraud, Cerdo.
ibid (a) Elenchus 16 and 24. “Brethren, I make known unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you.” If he has preached it and is making it known again, it is not a different Gospel or a different knowledge, subsequent to the one knowledge and the one Gospel which is one throughout the four Gospels and the Apostles—to the shame of Marcion who arrived so many years later, after the time of Hyginus, the ninth bishop of Rome in succession after the perfecting of the apostles Peter and Paul.206 (b) And so, since he knew by the Holy Spirit that Marcion and his kind would twist the road whose foundation had been properly laid, the same holy apostle secured it by saying, “Though we, or an angel, preach any other Gospel unto you than that which ye have received, let him be accursed.”207
It has been suggested by many that Epiphanius had a copy of Hegesippus open when dictating the Panarion. I think there are circumstantial pieces of evidence that this "church of Peter and Paul" was located at Ostia near a port and that's why there is continual mention of heretics basically 'arriving' in Rome and coming into the church.

Same with Irenaeus:
We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed "perfect knowledge," as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.

2. These have all declared to us that there is one God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets; and one Christ the Son of God. If any one do not agree to these truths, he despises the companions of the Lord; nay more, he despises Christ Himself the Lord; yea, he despises the Father also, and stands self-condemned, resisting and opposing his own salvation, as is the case with all heretics.

1. When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but viva voce: wherefore also Paul declared, "But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world."(1) And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself.

2. But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; and that not the apostles alone, but even the Lord Himself, spoke as at one time from the Demiurge, at another from the intermediate place, and yet again from the Pleroma, but that they themselves, indubitably, unsulliedly, and purely, have knowledge of the hidden mystery: this is, indeed, to blaspheme their Creator after a most impudent manner! It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.

3. Such are the adversaries with whom we have to deal, my very dear friend, endeavouring like slippery serpents to escape at all points. Where- fore they must be opposed at all points, if per- chance, by cutting off their retreat, we may succeed in turning them back to the truth. For, though it is not an easy thing for a soul under the influence of error to repent, yet, on the other hand, it is not altogether impossible to escape from error when the truth is brought alongside it.

1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect" apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.

2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority,(3) that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Sorer having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
And the Clementine Literature. First the Syriac file:///C:/Users/world/Downloads/The_Syriac_Clementine_Recognitions_and_H.pdf:
(Rec. 1:7; Hom. 1:7) Thus there were even gatherings in various places to deliberate and inquire who indeed this one was who had appeared, and what he meant to say. For even in the summer of that same year there openly stood a man from him before all the people in a public place, and he cried out while saying: “O Roman people, listen! The Son of God has come to Judea and promised Eternal Life to those who are willing, if they will proceed to be guided throughout their life according to the Will of the One Who sent him. Wherefore change your ways from vices to virtues and from things temporal to things eternal. And know the One God Who is in heaven, in Whose world you iniquitously dwell before His just Sight. If then you shall be transformed and guided throughout your life according to His Will, you shall be translated into another world, become eternal, and rejoice in His hidden Blessings that are ineffable.” He was, then, a Hebrew from a distant land, and his name was ‘Barnabas.’ He was claiming of himself that he was one of his disciples, and here, in one out of the many places he had been staying, he was readily speaking the words of his great people to those who were willing. Even I then came with them and stood among the crowd that was standing by him. And I was listening to his words and perceiving through their truth that it was not by artifice that he was speaking sound reason, but he was sincerely and without artificial cunning persuading them of what he had heard and seen him do. And he claimed that the Son of God had appeared, and he was bringing forth and presenting many witnesses of the miracles and words spoken by him from the crowd that was standing by.

(Rec. 1:8; Hom. 1:10) But because the things spoken with neither craft nor deceit were joyfully received by the people, the philosophic men, who from the instruction of youth were so taught, wanted to jest with him and rise up while mocking and deriding him in a vaunt without measure, as if they were wielding a great weapon through the artifice of syllogisms of inquiry. But he was thrusting their babbling away from himself, and he was not chasing after the cunning and trickery of their questions; but rather fearlessly, while not being hurried, he did not leave off from the things he was proclaiming. And at one of these moments, then, a certain man asked him: “Why does the gnat, although it is small, have six legs and also wings, but the elephant, which is greatest among animals, has no wings and only four feet?” He then, after this question, returned to the matter that had been interrupted, and he responded as if to the contrary of the question and resumed his previous subject, which from the beginning had been affirmed. He was employing only this beginning word all the time that they were cutting off his speech: “We have the charge of him who sent us to tell you only of his words, deeds, and miraculous wonders. And instead of wordy demonstrations, we give you many witnesses from those of you who are standing by whom I, through having seen, remember by their selfsame visages. Now the power is yours either to listen or not to be persuaded. It is therefore advantageous for you that I speak to you unceasingly, because it would be a loss for me if I should be silent, but it would be injurious for you unless you understand without demonstrations. I would have been able to answer your empty questions, but only if you had been asking in the love of truth. But concerning the difference between the creatures of the gnat and the elephant, it should be told to you that, while you do not know the God Who is over all, now is not the time.”

(Rec. 1:9; Hom. 1:11–12) And after he said all these things, as if from concord they let loose riotous laughter, so that they might silence him and through uncertainties castigate him like a Grecian or Barbarian. But when I saw them, through zeal not knowing how, and from righteous indignation of keeping silent any longer, I did not forbear to speak out, but I shouted with boldness, saying: “Rightly and appropriately has God determined His Will, so that it would not be comprehended by you prior to your indication that you are not worthy of such things. Up until this moment it is apparent that knowledge has made an end of you through understanding and discernment. For whereas now Preachers of His Will have been sent, while not professing grammatical artifice, but revealing His Will by means of simple and honest words without cunning, they make it known for anyone who hears these things spoken, without the spiteful manner of one unwilling to reveal to all. You came and, along with
not knowing what is to your advantage to the harm of your souls, you laugh at the truth, which to your own condemnation is driven among Barbarians. It is known even now that you do not wish he had come to you in order for you to receive him, because of your own filthiness and the purity of his words, for you do not hide that you are lovers of vain and empty words and not lovers of truth and lovers of wisdom. How long will you be learning to speak when you cannot even admit that you are ignorant, for you have many speeches that are not even worth a single word? What then will this multitude of you Grecians say, so as to be of one mind, if there truly is a Judgment like this one has said? ‘Why, O God, did You not reveal Your Will to us?’ Now surely shall you not hear, if you are even worthy of an answer, such: ‘I, knowing the intentions of all those yet to be before the foundations of the world, have secretly met and made Myself known to everyone, as is worthy of each person. But as this is so, I have willed to be recognized and give rest to those who take refuge in Me. On account of this, from the beginning of the first generations, I did not leave My Will exposed before every person to be publicized. And now at the end of the age, I have sent out Preachers of My Will who even now are being
mocked, despised, and reviled by those who, without wanting to be helped in anything, violently reject My Love. Oh, concerning the great wrong, that until now they bring to the slaughter the Preachers and those who chance upon them from humanity as being called to Salvation and Life. But this would have been corrupt and without judgment against My Preachers, as it would have been against all of them from the beginning if the worthy had separately been called to Salvation from the beginning. For this thing, which is now wickedly done by some, vindicates My Providence with justice. It is good for the Word worthy of honor that, from the beginning, I was unwilling to leave it exposed before every person for useless dishonor. Rather, I only intended it to remain in silence, as is honorable, but it was not from those who were formerly worthy that I kept it silent—because even they received and partook of it—but only from those, and such as these, who are now seen to be unworthy—even hating Me and unwilling to love themselves.’ But even now, leave off laughing at this man and question me on account of acknowledging him. Or, according to a question that I ask you, let whoever is willing from among you return me an answer. But do not bark like filthy dogs and by a disorderly clamor shut out and stop up the hearing of those who desire to be saved. O you wicked ones and haters of God, who without faith make void the life-giving knowledge of your mind! How are you able to receive forgiveness for despising one who promises to tell you of the Knowledge of God? But besides these things, he was being a good man, such that even if he should not speak anything of truth, he had good will toward you, but you would not receive him.”

(Rec. 1:10; Hom. 1:13) While I was saying these things and things corresponding and similar to them, a great uproar of the crowd was arising.
Some of them, as if pitying the Barbarian, were encouraging me, but others who were fools and without conscience were sharply gnashing their teeth against me. However, because the evening came, I seized Barnabas’ hand by force while he was unwilling, and I led him away as my guest. I made him stay where no one would lay hands on him. He remained a few days with me and made me hear some words from the teaching of truth briefly within a few days. And he said: “I hasten to Judea because of an appointed day of a rite of doctrine.” Thereafter he wanted to be with the sons of his people, and in this he was greatly grieving me.

(Rec. 1:11; Hom. 1:14) But I said to him: “Only tell me the words of the Son of Man who has appeared, and I, with my own words, will adorn them
and proclaim the Will of God, and likewise within a few days I will travel with you to the place that you go, for I increasingly desire to travel to the land of Judea, and perhaps then to live among you for all the rest of my life.” And he then, after hearing these things, returned me an answer: “If you want to see our situation and learn something helpful to yourself, in this same hour go with me to that place. But if not, I will tell you the directions to our residence and everything that I have today intended. Once you are rested you may come and find me, but tomorrow I am traveling to those of my own.” But when I saw that he was not withheld by anyone, I went with him to the harbor and learned from him the directions to their residence, which he mentioned, and I said to him: “If it were not for some money owed to me that I have been seeking, in this same hour, I would now be going with you. However, I will quickly follow you.” And after I spoke with him and committed him to the captain of the ship, I turned away from him in great sorrow while remembering him as a good friend and an excellent guest.

(Rec. 1:12; Hom. 1:15) And I then stayed a few days, but I had not collected all the debt that was owed because of my hastiness, and I despised the
remainder of it as being a hindrance to me. I quickly set off for Judea and within fifteen days I arrived in Caesarea Straton. But when I traveled and went up into the land searching for an inn, I learned that a man named ‘Peter,’ the chosen disciple of the Son of Man who appeared in Judea and worked signs and wonders, was holding a disputation of words on the next day with Simon, a Samaritan from Gitthonin. I then, after hearing these things, asked them to show me his residence, and when they had shown me and I had studied the doorpost, I drew near, spoke, and explained who I was and from where I had come.
Homilies
At length meetings began to be held in various places in the city, and this subject to be discussed in conversation, and to be a matter of wonder who this might be who had appeared, and what message He had brought from God to men; until, about the same year, a certain man, standing in a most crowded place in the city, made proclamation to the people, saying: Hear me, O you citizens of Rome. The Son of God is now in the regions of Judæa, promising eternal life to every one who will hear Him, but upon condition that he shall regulate his actions according to the will of Him by whom He has been sent, even of God the Father. Wherefore turn ye from evil things to good, from things temporal to things eternal. Acknowledge that there is one God, ruler of heaven and earth, in whose righteous sight ye unrighteous inhabit His world. But if you be converted, and act according to His will, then, coming to the world to come, and being made immortal, you shall enjoy His unspeakable blessings and rewards. Now, the man who spoke these things to the people was from the regions of the East, by nation a Hebrew, by name Barnabas, who said that he himself was one of His disciples, and that he was sent for this end, that he should declare these things to those who would hear them. When I heard these things, I began, with the rest of the multitude, to follow him, and to hear what he had to say. Truly I perceived that there was nothing of dialectic artifice in the man, but that he expounded with simplicity, and without any craft of speech, such things as he had heard from the Son of God, or had seen. For he did not confirm his assertions by the force of arguments, but produced, from the people who stood round about him, many witnesses of the sayings and marvels which he related.

Now, inasmuch as the people began to assent willingly to the things which were sincerely spoken, and to embrace his simple discourse, those who thought themselves learned or philosophic began to laugh at the man, and to flout him, and to throw out for him the grappling-hooks of syllogisms, like strong arms. But he, unterrified, regarding their subtleties as mere ravings, did not even judge them worthy of an answer, but boldly pursued the subject which he had set before him. At length, some one having proposed this question to him as he was speaking, Why a gnat has been so formed, that though it is a small creature, and has six feet, yet it has got wings in addition; whereas an elephant, though it is an immense animal, and has no wings, yet has only four feet; he, paying no attention to the question, went on with his discourse, which had been interrupted by the unseasonable challenge, only adding this admonition at every interruption: We have it in charge to declare to you the words and the wondrous works of Him who has sent us, and to confirm the truth of what we speak, not by artfully devised arguments, but by witnesses produced from among yourselves. For I recognise many standing in the midst of you whom I remember to have heard along with us the things which we have heard, and to have seen what we have seen. But be it in your option to receive or to spurn the tidings which we bring to you. For we cannot keep back what we know to be for your advantage, because, if we be silent, woe is to us; but to you, if you receive not what we speak, destruction. I could indeed very easily answer your foolish challenges, if you asked for the sake of learning truth — I mean as to the difference of a gnat and an elephant; but now it were absurd to speak to you of these creatures, when the very Creator and Framer of all things is unknown by you.

When he had thus spoken, all, as with one consent, with rude voice raised a shout of derision, to put him to shame, and to silence him, crying out that he was a barbarian and a madman. When I saw matters going on in this way, being filled, I know not whence, with a certain zeal, and inflamed with religious enthusiasm, I could not keep silence, but cried out with all boldness, Most righteously does Almighty God hide His will from you, whom He foresaw to be unworthy of the knowledge of Himself, as is manifest to those who are really wise, from what you are now doing. For when you see that preachers of the will of God have come among you, because their speech makes no show of knowledge of the grammatical art, but in simple and unpolished language they set before you the divine commands, so that all who hear may be able to follow and to understand the things that are spoken, you deride the ministers and messengers of your salvation, not knowing that it is the condemnation of you who think yourselves skilful and eloquent, that rustic and barbarous men have the knowledge of the truth; whereas, when it has come to you, it is not even received as a , while, if your intemperance and lust did not oppose, it ought to have been a citizen and a native. Thus you are convicted of not being friends of truth and philosophers, but followers of boasting and vain speakers. You think that truth dwells not in simple, but in ingenious and subtle words, and produce countless thousands of words which are not to be rated at the worth of one word. What, then, do you think will become of you, all you crowd of Greeks, if there is to be, as he says, a judgment of God? But now give over laughing at this man to your own destruction, and let any one of you who pleases answer me; for, indeed, by your barking you annoy the ears even of those who desire to be saved, and by your clamour you turn aside to the fall of infidelity the minds that are prepared for faith. What pardon can there be for you who deride and do violence to the messenger of the truth when he offers to you the knowledge of God? Whereas, even if he brought you nothing of truth, yet, even for the kindness of his intentions towards you, you ought to receive with gratitude and welcome.

While I was urging these and similar arguments, a great excitement was stirred up among the bystanders, some being moved with pity as towards a stranger, and approving my speech as in accordance with that feeling; others, petulant and stolid, rousing the anger of their undisciplined minds as much against me as against Barnabas. But as the day was declining to evening, I laid hold of Barnabas by the right hand, and led him away, although reluctantly, to my house; and there I made him remain, lest perchance any one of the rude rabble should lay hands upon him. While we were thus placed in contact for a few days, I gladly heard him discoursing the word of truth; yet he hastened his departure, saying that he must by all means celebrate at Judæa a festal day of his religion which was approaching, and that there he should remain in future with his countrymen and his brethren, evidently indicating that he was horrified at the wrong that had been done to him.

At length I said to him, Only expound to me the doctrine of that man who you say has appeared, and I will arrange your sayings in my language, and will preach the kingdom and righteousness of Almighty God; and after that, if you wish it, I shall even sail along with you, for I am extremely desirous to see Judæa, and perhaps I shall remain with you always. To this he answered, If indeed you wish to see our country, and to learn those things which you desire, set sail with me even now; or, if there be anything that detains you now, I shall leave with you directions to my dwelling, so that when you please to come you may easily find me; for tomorrow I shall set out on my journey. When I saw him determined, I went down with him to the harbour, and carefully took from him the directions which he gave me to find his dwelling. I told him that, but for the necessity of getting some money which was due to me, I should not at all delay, but that I should speedily follow him. Having told him this, I commended him to the kindness of those who had charge of the ship, and returned sad; for I was possessed of the memory of the intercourse which I had had with an excellent and a choice friend.
Recognitions:
And then in the same year, in the autumn season, a certain one, standing in a public place, cried and said, Men of Rome, hearken. The Son of God has come in Judæa, proclaiming eternal life to all who will, if they shall live according to the counsel of the Father, who has sent Him. Wherefore change your manner of life from the worse to the better, from things temporal to things eternal; for know ye that there is one God, who is in heaven, whose world ye unrighteously dwell in before His righteous eyes. But if ye be changed, and live according to His counsel, then, being born into the other world, and becoming eternal, ye shall enjoy His unspeakable good things. But if ye be unbelieving, your souls, after the dissolution of the body, shall be thrown into the place of fire, where, being punished eternally, they shall repent of their unprofitable deeds. For every one, the term of repentance is the present life. I therefore, when I heard these things, was grieved, because no one among so great multitudes, hearing such an announcement, said: I shall go into Judæa, that I may know if this man who tells us these things speaks the truth, that the Son of God has come into Judæa, for the sake of a good and eternal hope, revealing the will of the Father who sent Him. For it is no small matter which they say that He preaches: for He asserts that the souls of some, being themselves immortal, shall enjoy eternal good things; and that those of others, being thrown into unquenchable fire, shall be punished forever.

While I spoke thus concerning others, I also lectured myself, saying, Why do I blame others, being myself guilty of the very same crime of heedlessness? But I shall hasten into Judæa, having first arranged my affairs. And when I had thus made up my mind, there occurred a long time of delay, my worldly affairs being difficult to arrange. Therefore, meditating further on the nature of life, that by involving men in hope it lays snares for those who are making haste, yea, and how much time I had been robbed of while tossed by hopes, and that we men die while thus occupied, I left all my affairs as they were, and sped to Portus; and coming to the harbour, and being taken on board a ship, I was borne by adverse winds to Alexandria instead of Judæa; and being detained there by stress of weather, I consorted with the philosophers, and told them about the rumour and the sayings of him who had appeared in Rome. And they answered that indeed they knew nothing of him who had appeared in Rome; but concerning Him who was born in Judæa, and who was said by the report to be the Son of God, they had heard from many who had come from thence, and had learned respecting all the wonderful things that He did with a word.

And when I said that I wished I could meet with some one of those who had seen Him, they immediately brought me to one, saying, There is one here who not only is acquainted with Him, but is also of that country, a Hebrew, by name Barnabas, who says that he himself is one of His disciples; and hereabouts he resides, and readily announces to those who will the terms of His promise. Then I went with them; and when I came, I stood listening to his words with the crowd that stood round him; and I perceived that he was speaking the truth not with dialectic art, but was setting forth simply and without preparation what he had heard and seen the manifested Son of God do and say. And even from the crowd who stood around him he produced many witnesses of the miracles and discourses which he narrated.
The general scene here fits with the idea of Peter teaching at Ostia or near the/a Roman port.
Stuart
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by Stuart »

All 4th century sources (yes, I think much of what we call Irenaeus are interpolations from the late 3rd to late 4th century).

Suggests the myth/story has post-Nicene origins.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by MrMacSon »

Stuart wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:15 pm All 4th century sources (yes, I think much of what we call Irenaeus are interpolations from the late 3rd to late 4th century).
Yep, 4th century sources for a 4th century bascilica, among other things:


References in the sources

In the biography of Pope Silverster [supposedly the bishop of Rome from 31 January 314 until his death in 335] in the Liber Pontificialis [dated to the 7th or 8th century CE] we read the following entry:
  • Then the emperor Constantine built in the city of Ostia close to Portus Romanus the bascilica of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul and of John the Baptist, where he presented the following gifts ...
... < . . snipped . . >
Lastly,
the Constantinian cathedral of Ostia is known from one further source. It is mentioned in the Acts of Saint Gallicanus, the very Gallicanus who [also] makes his appearance in the Life of Silvester as [only] joint benefactor. Flavius Gallicanus assumed the consular garb in the year 330 ... While still in Ostia he founded a church which is described in the Acta S. Gallicani ...

... in his own (saint's) legends he [Gallicanus] is the sole builder of the church ...

https://www.academia.edu/45423595/F_A_B ... 99_342_353


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Secret Alias
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by Secret Alias »

Pre-4th century. Nonsense.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by Leucius Charinus »

The Bishop of Rome, Pope and Pontifex Maximus Damasus (366-384 CE) promoted the "Peter was Here in Rome" tourism industry, and renovated the catacombs to reflect these new business opportunities. He also assisted in kick-starting the glorious "Holy Relic Trade". The turnstiles are still clicking over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Damasus_I
Stuart
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by Stuart »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:53 pm Pre-4th century. Nonsense.
All but one source is definitively 4th century. The other one amazingly conforms to 4th century material. This is one of the things about Irenaeus material (not all of it, half of it) that is not well explained.

The works are clearly not a unity, rather they have a single editor on top of the collection, much like the Lukan layer in Paul. My suggestion is this 4th century collector/editor included the material which is consistent with 4th century understanding, but missing in the 150 years between when Irenaeus supposedly wrote and the next occurrence of similar material. Everything from the Simon Magus material to this.

Yes, I agree with MrMacSon, 4th century religious tourism is a strong motive.
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Secret Alias
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by Secret Alias »

Why do we always filter discussions into these predictable ways? There clearly was an earlier building. We don't know it was an earlier church. But why deny it was? Who cares or at least who besides those pushing an agenda? The point of the thread was to ask maybe "the church of Rome" was really at Ostia.
schillingklaus
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by schillingklaus »

It must be denied because it is apologistic nonsense.
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Secret Alias
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by Secret Alias »

What must be denied? That there was Christianity in the first through fourth centuries? Who is the apologist? Me?
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Church of Peter and Paul at Ostia

Post by andrewcriddle »

At face value we have a transition from the early idea of the Church at Rome as the Church of Peter and Paul, i.e. made up of believers loyal to the faith of Peter and Paul, to the later building of a physical church called the Church of Peter and Paul.

Andrew Criddle
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