Constantine

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Constantine

Post by Leucius Charinus »

schillingklaus wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:21 am Mohammad is another fiction, as pointed out by Sven Kalisch.

The creators of Mohammad and Islam had the luxury of looking back a few centuries to how Constantine used the NT Codex as a political instrument. Irrespective of where the NT came from. The Quranic compilers had a choice between quoting from the NT canonical material as preserved by the Christian orthodoxy. Or quoting from the NT apocryphal material which, according to the Christian orthodoxy, were written by heretics. Those who compiled the earliest Quranic texts had the luxury of this choice

They chose to depict Jesus from the NT apocrypha. I wonder why?
StephenGoranson
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Re: Constantine

Post by StephenGoranson »

Pete/LC wrote that he looked into pre-Constantine relevant evidence. Pete, did you look into this papyrus text?

HGV: P.Oxy. 43 3119 [source] [xml]
Title Official Correspondence
Publications P.Oxy. 43 3119 More in series P.Oxy.More in series P.Oxy., vol. 43
Support/Dimensions Papyrus
Post-Concordance BL Entries VIII 265; XII 149
Origin Oxyrhynchos More from Oxyrhynchos
Material Papyrus
Date 259 - 260 More from the period between 259 CE and 260 CE
Commentary Zur Datierung vgl. BL VII, S. 156, VIII, S. 265 und Festschrift A. Adriani I, S. 40 Anm. 9 und S. 42 Anm. 17. Vgl. Luijendijk, Greetings in the Lord, S. 184-188. Zu Z. 7 und zur Datierung vgl. ZPE 186, 2013, S. 111-113.
Print Illustrations Plate VI
Subjects Korrespondenz (amtlich); Christen; Untersuchung; Vermögen
Images http://163.1.169.40/cgi-bin/library?a=q ... =p-000-00-...
License Creative Commons License © Heidelberger Gesamtverzeichnis der griechischen Papyrusurkunden Ägyptens. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License.
Trismegistos: 15998 [source]
Publications P. Oxy. 43 3119 (Rea, John R. R.; 1975)
Inv. no. Oxford, Sackler Library, Papyrology Rooms P. Oxy. 3119
Date AD 259 Aug 30 - 260 Aug 28 (year 07)
Language Greek
Provenance Egypt, U19 - Oxyrynchos (Bahnasa)[found & written]
People mentioned people
Places mentioned places
Citations
52269. John Edwin George Whitehorne, "P. Oxy. XLIII 3119: A Document of Valerian's Persecution?," ZPE, 24 (1977), pp. 187-196. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20181315
DDbDP transcription: p.oxy.43.3119 [xml]
IIIspc Oxyrhynchus

msup

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2((tachygraphic-marks))
((tachygraphic-marks))
((tachygraphic-marks))
ctr,1

Traces 4-5 lines
ctr,2

ο[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
5μετὰ τὰ ̣ ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
οἱ δηλωθεν[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
διασημοτάτου δ[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
προσ\κ/εκρίσθαι τω[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
γνώριζε ἐ̣ν̣ τῷ ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
10ὃ̣ ἐκομισάμην γ̣ρ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
(ἔτους) ζ [⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
Σαΐτου. Αὐρηλί[ου Ἑρμε-]
πε̣ρ̣ὶ ἐξετάσ̣[ε]ως ̣ ̣ρ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
Χρηστιανῶν(*) κ ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
15Αὐρήλιος Ἑρμε ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
̣ ̣ ̣[ ̣ ̣ ̣] π̣[ε]ρ̣ὶ̣ οἰκ̣ο̣ ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
ἐπ̣ὶ̣ τ̣ῶ̣ν ὑπογεγρ̣α̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
Χ[ρ]ηστιανῶν(*) κελε̣υ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
[ ̣ ̣]τ̣ατου ἡγεμόνος ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
20[ ̣ ̣] ̣ου Αἰλίου Γορδι̣[ανοῦ ⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
Apparatus

^ ctr,2.14. l. Χριστιανῶν
^ ctr,2.18. l. Χ[ρ]ιστιανῶν
Editorial History; All History; (detailed)
Creative Commons License © Duke Databank of Documentary Papyri. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License.
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Leucius Charinus
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Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: Constantine

Post by Leucius Charinus »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:09 am Pete/LC wrote that he looked into pre-Constantine relevant evidence. Pete, did you look into this papyrus text?

HGV: P.Oxy. 43 3119 [source] [xml]
Title Official Correspondence
Publications P.Oxy. 43 3119 More in series P.Oxy.More in series P.Oxy., vol. 43
Support/Dimensions Papyrus
Post-Concordance BL Entries VIII 265; XII 149
Origin Oxyrhynchos More from Oxyrhynchos
Material Papyrus
Date 259 - 260 More from the period between 259 CE and 260 CE
Commentary Zur Datierung vgl. BL VII, S. 156, VIII, S. 265 und Festschrift A. Adriani I, S. 40 Anm. 9 und S. 42 Anm. 17. Vgl. Luijendijk, Greetings in the Lord, S. 184-188. Zu Z. 7 und zur Datierung vgl. ZPE 186, 2013, S. 111-113.
Print Illustrations Plate VI
Subjects Korrespondenz (amtlich); Christen; Untersuchung; Vermögen
Images http://163.1.169.40/cgi-bin/library?a=q ... =p-000-00-...
License Creative Commons License © Heidelberger Gesamtverzeichnis der griechischen Papyrusurkunden Ägyptens. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License.
Trismegistos: 15998 [source]
Publications P. Oxy. 43 3119 (Rea, John R. R.; 1975)
Inv. no. Oxford, Sackler Library, Papyrology Rooms P. Oxy. 3119
Date AD 259 Aug 30 - 260 Aug 28 (year 07)
Language Greek
Provenance Egypt, U19 - Oxyrynchos (Bahnasa)[found & written]
People mentioned people
Places mentioned places
Citations
52269. John Edwin George Whitehorne, "P. Oxy. XLIII 3119: A Document of Valerian's Persecution?," ZPE, 24 (1977), pp. 187-196. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20181315
DDbDP transcription: p.oxy.43.3119 [xml]
IIIspc Oxyrhynchus

msup

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
2((tachygraphic-marks))
((tachygraphic-marks))
((tachygraphic-marks))
ctr,1

Traces 4-5 lines
ctr,2

ο[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
5μετὰ τὰ ̣ ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
οἱ δηλωθεν[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
διασημοτάτου δ[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
προσ\κ/εκρίσθαι τω[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
γνώριζε ἐ̣ν̣ τῷ ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
10ὃ̣ ἐκομισάμην γ̣ρ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
(ἔτους) ζ [⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
Σαΐτου. Αὐρηλί[ου Ἑρμε-]
πε̣ρ̣ὶ ἐξετάσ̣[ε]ως ̣ ̣ρ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
Χρηστιανῶν(*) κ ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
15Αὐρήλιος Ἑρμε ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
̣ ̣ ̣[ ̣ ̣ ̣] π̣[ε]ρ̣ὶ̣ οἰκ̣ο̣ ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
ἐπ̣ὶ̣ τ̣ῶ̣ν ὑπογεγρ̣α̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
Χ[ρ]ηστιανῶν(*) κελε̣υ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
[ ̣ ̣]τ̣ατου ἡγεμόνος ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]
20[ ̣ ̣] ̣ου Αἰλίου Γορδι̣[ανοῦ ⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]


Apparatus

^ ctr,2.14. l. Χριστιανῶν
^ ctr,2.18. l. Χ[ρ]ιστιανῶν


Editorial History; All History; (detailed)
Creative Commons License © Duke Databank of Documentary Papyri. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License.
Early "Chrestians"
The sources of "Chrestian" [χρηστιανος]
and "Christian" [χριστιανος] in Antiquity

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/chres ... stians.htm
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Constantine

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Is Constantine "the archon of the western regions" ?

The Concept of Our Great Power (NHC 6.4)
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/cgp.html

Then the wrath of the archons burned. They were ashamed of their dissolution. And they fumed and were angry at the life. The cities were <overturned>; the mountains dissolve. The archon came, with the archons of the western regions, [1] to the East, i.e., that place where the Logos appeared at first. Then the earth trembled, and the cities were troubled. Moreover, the birds ate and were filled with their dead. [2] The earth mourned together with the inhabited world; they became desolate.

Then when the times were completed, then wickedness arose mightily even until the final end of the Logos. Then the archon of the western regions arose, and from the East he will perform a work, and he will instruct men in his wickedness. [3] And he wants to nullify all teaching [4], the words of true wisdom, while loving the lying wisdom. For he attacked the old, wishing to introduce wickedness and to put on dignity. He was incapable, because the defilement of his garments is great. Then he became angry.

[1] The archon came, with the archons of the western regions to the East

The archon - is this Constantine - conqueror of Rome now heading East? The archons of the western regions - are these the chieftains of the barbarian tribes who led their tribes into battle. Constantine's army largely consisted of barbarian tribes lead by their chieftains.



[2] The Dead = Battles leading up to Constantine's military supremacy

The Battle of Adrianople was fought on July 3, 324,[2] during a Roman civil war, the second to be waged between the two emperors Constantine I and Licinius; Licinius suffered a heavy defeat. What followed, in the words of the historian Zosimus, was "a great massacre": Licinius' army, according to Zosimus, received losses of 34,000 dead. This figure is considered an exaggeration by modern historians.

The Battle of the Hellespont, consisting of two separate naval clashes, was fought in 324 between a Constantinian fleet, led by the eldest son of Constantine I, Crispus; and a larger fleet under Licinius' admiral, Abantus (or Amandus). Despite being outnumbered, Crispus won a very complete victory. All but four of the 200 ships of the Licinian fleet were wrecked, sunk, or captured.

The Battle of Chrysopolis was fought on 18 September 324 at Chrysopolis (modern Üsküdar), near Chalcedon (modern Kadıköy), between the two Roman emperors Constantine I and Licinius. According to the historian Zosimus, "There was great slaughter at Chrysopolis." Zozimus Book 2 reads: “A sharp engagement taking place between Chalcedon and the sacred promontory, Constantine had the superiority; for he fell on the enemy with such resolution, that of a hundred and thirty thousand men, scarcely thirty thousand escaped." - That's 100,000 dead. (Grant states the losses of the Eastern army were exaggerated and were instead between 25,000 to 30,000)


[3] from the East he will perform a work,
and he will instruct men in his wickedness.


Is this work the New Testament and LXX Bible Codex circulated by Constantine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Bib ... onstantine

The author laments "the final end of the Logos".


[4]He wants to nullify all teaching

Constantine wants to replace Hellenistic teaching with Christian teaching.
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John T
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Re: Constantine

Post by John T »

It is well established history that: The Council of Nicaea in 325 CE was held to settle a debate between Athanasius of Alexandria and Arianism over the essence of Jesus in relationship to God. Constantine held the meeting at his new palace. Records of the meeting were kept and decrees were made. This was not a meeting to create a new religion but to establish orthodoxy. Constantine stopped just short of outlawing paganism. Hardly something that could be done if Christianity was newly invented.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Constantine

Post by StephenGoranson »

John T, just above, makes a good point. Heresy and orthodoxy claims and disputes have a long history.
Well documented, for example, in the changing views concerning the writings of Origen (of Alexandria, then Caesarea), who certainly lived and wrote entirely before Constantine.
Secret Alias
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Re: Constantine

Post by Secret Alias »

Odd that Julian would have blamed "Galileans" if he knew his uncle was the ultimate source for Christianity. I know I know, how clever to mislead us. Julian was in on it too. Complete nonsense.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Constantine

Post by Leucius Charinus »

"The archon of the western regions"

The text quoted above is from the Nag Hammadi library - "The Concept of Our Great Power" (NHC 6.4). In it is a reference to "the archon of the western regions." Elsewhere in the text it is evident that the author had knowledge of the Arian controversy.

The question asked is whether "the archon of the western regions" may be an historical allusion to Constantine.


Alternative views exist:

For example Francis Williams has claimed that the Archon of the West in this work:
  • Then the archon of the western regions arose, and from the East he will perform a work, and he will instruct men in his wickedness. And he wants to nullify all teaching, the words of true wisdom, while loving the lying wisdom. For he attacked the old, wishing to introduce wickedness and to put on dignity.
is actually a veiled reference to Julian the Apostate.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Constantine

Post by StephenGoranson »

Some interpret this as a future prediction. For example, Robert J. Daly, Apocalyptic Thought in Early Christianity, 2009, page 114:

"...a dramatic vision of the coming end of material creation...an age of oppression led by 'the Archon of the Western regions'--a kind of Antichrist figure...."

If so, then, probably not Constantine.

Also, if 40:7 refers to the heresy of the Anomoeans, that is a heresy that is known only after the time of Constantine.
Secret Alias
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Re: Constantine

Post by Secret Alias »

I don't understand this argument. The seven weeks prophesy in Daniel was adapted to contemporary events well past the gospel of Mark. The 6000 year 'end of the world' moreover was interpreted in the fourth century to contemporary events (earlier Church Fathers applied the 6000 year expectation to the appearance of Christ in the first century). Why would Constantine have encouraged the application of Daniel chapter 9 to an event 300 years earlier with (a) the benefit of knowledge that a second revolt took place in the second century and (b) how would the end of Judaism in 70 CE have been important to Imperial Christianity in the fourth century? Why would Constantine and Eusebius have supposed that this would ignite a new religious interest? The Jews were of marginal significance to fourth century events.
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